Laverne Cox on Messy Dating Stories & Healing from Childhood Trauma

Baby, this is Keke Palmer

In this intimate episode of 'Baby, this is Keke Palmer,' Laverne Cox opens up about her memoir 'Transcendent,' sharing deeply personal stories on healing from

Key takeaways

• Love requires self-love; you can only give as much love as you have for yourself.
• Healing from trauma involves embracing vulnerability and setting boundaries in relationships.

Main topics

• Healing from childhood trauma
• Transgender visibility and advocacy

Notable quotes

"Love is not something we give or get. It's something we nurture and grow." – Laverne Cox on Brene Brown's definition of love.

Conclusion

Laverne Cox's candid conversation reveals that true freedom lies in authenticity,

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Today I'm sitting down with the incomparable Speaker 2 (0:02) Laverne Cox. You Speaker 3 (0:04) know her as the groundbreaking actress who made history as Sophia Bursette on Orange is the New Black, becoming the first openly transgender person nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award in acting category. She's also a producer, author, host, advocate, and now with her deeply personal memoir, Transcendent, she's telling her story in her own words. But today... we're talking about something even bigger. Behind all the history-making moments is a woman who has spent her life fighting to define herself on her own terms. We're talking identity, joy, love, dating, fashion, healing, what it means to be seen, and what it takes to keep growing into yourself. So, let's get into it. Because baby, this is Kiki Palmer. And baby, this is Laverne Cox. Speaker 2 (0:57) No matter what we're doing in the car, just chilling, pop on Amazon Music, sit back and listen. Life, Speaker 3 (1:02) love, sex, science, covering it all. Especially the bad, cause money always involved. No matter what it is, we gon' make it make sense. Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kids. So grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy and get into the vibe that only won't get Speaker 2 (1:14) you through. You Speaker 3 (1:14) know it's Speaker 2 (1:15) your Speaker 3 (1:15) girl. Baby, this is, this is Kiki. Speaker 2 (1:19) Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. Speaker 3 (1:26) Today's episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Starbucks. Fall's most iconic beverage is here. The Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte is back to kick off the season. Order now on the app. Speaker 3 (1:46) you do this every time you out doing me on my own show. This look, oh my gosh, sorry I got your foot. It's Speaker 1 (1:52) not a competition. Babe, Speaker 3 (1:54) you look so freaking stunning. You look so Speaker 1 (1:57) stunning. I love this color. And Speaker 3 (2:00) it goes Speaker 1 (2:00) so beautifully with your hair. Now is Speaker 3 (2:02) this Mugler? Speaker 1 (2:03) It is indeed. Because Speaker 3 (2:04) that's you. Down. I wear other designers as well. Speaker 1 (2:08) But I do collect vintage Mugler. This is spring 1993, which is a really rare defined documentation of this collection because there was no runway show of it. But there are women's wear daily images of this dress. Speaker 3 (2:25) Period. And that Speaker 1 (2:27) beat. I do feel. Today I was like, I want to feel like, just full bombshell fantasy. When I tried on the dress and there was all this cleavage, I was just like, I want to lean into like my Bardot, like full bombshell fantasy. Just for me. Like, there's no men seem to be checking for me. Ah, me either, girl. It's for me. I don't Speaker 3 (2:54) know about you, how you feel in the dating world, but it's like we're texting and it's like, what are we saying, really? How do we get into this obligatory relationship where we're just saying something to each other every day that's random? What does it mean? What is the impact? So when someone can spar and you can be like, okay, and before you know it, we're down some rabbit hole, that is fun. Speaker 1 (3:11) That's fun. And it's also, I was talking earlier, I was thinking about, because I'm all about... being a better version of Laverne. I'm always about Speaker 3 (3:22) self-improvement. Speaker 1 (3:25) And I was revisiting Brene Brown's definition of love, which I think is so unbelievably amazing. And I think how amazing would it be if with my ex, we could have like talked about this? Because I shared it with him, of course. And he was like, that's beautiful. And I, but I was like, let's parse it. So it's, so Brene Brown says, we cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known and honor the spiritual offering of that connection with trust, respect, kindness, and affection. Trust, respect, kindness, and affection. We could break it down with the guy. There's more. Yeah, Speaker 3 (4:06) I want to Speaker 1 (4:06) break Speaker 3 (4:06) it Speaker 1 (4:06) down with Speaker 3 (4:06) the guy. Speaker 1 (4:06) And talk about that. And trust, respect, kindness, and affection. Love is not something we give or get. It's something we nurture and grow. A connection that can only exist within each individual when it exists within each of them. We can only love others as much as we love ourselves. Hello. Shame, blame, disrespect. betrayal and the withholding of affection damages the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries when they're acknowledged, healed, and rare. The accountability piece. So like, if you have that... I'm following you every step of the way. If you have that definition to work with, right? And then there's been a shaming moment or a blaming moment or disrespectful moment. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal. Speaker 3 (4:56) Yeah. Speaker 1 (4:57) Withholding of affection. That Speaker 3 (4:58) withholding of affection is evil. Evil. And girl, Speaker 1 (5:02) and it happens, especially when they love bomb and then they like pull it away. Speaker 3 (5:07) It's not funny, but it is. Speaker 1 (5:09) Girl, how many of us have dealt with that? But like to be able to have a man who had the capacity to process that with you, I was thinking how amazing would that be? But like. Yeah. Where are those men? Speaker 3 (5:20) Yeah, because where is the people that really believe in the compassion that it would take to actually exist in that space? Or just the people that the big part of what you just said, that Brene said, is you can only love people as much as you love yourself. Where are the people that one of the first things you said when you sat down in this chair was, I'm always on a journey trying to better myself. It's like, where do I find other people that are also on that same path? It's Speaker 1 (5:41) weird because I put on my list between breakups, like two or three breakups ago, I put on the list someone. like engaged in self-improvement and wanting to better himself. And then I did, the next boyfriend was that guy. Speaker 3 (5:54) Okay. Speaker 1 (5:56) But was it because Speaker 3 (5:57) it was a trend or was he really seeming to genuinely be? It Speaker 1 (6:01) was genuine, but there were other issues. There's always something. You know what Speaker 3 (6:06) I mean. There's Speaker 1 (6:07) always something. And I think like what I realized, he didn't make the book. Speaker 3 (6:13) Maybe that's a good thing. Speaker 1 (6:14) No, a lot of them didn't make the book, girl. Speaker 3 (6:16) Girl. But Speaker 1 (6:17) this one, oh, should I say this? Speaker 3 (6:19) Say it. We can bleep somebody's name. I don't know what you're going to say. I think Speaker 1 (6:25) when we went public, he's one of the ones I went public with. Is this the one where people Speaker 3 (6:29) try to get on you about? Is that where you're being up? No, no, no. That Speaker 1 (6:31) was after. Got it. Like, I went public and people knew him. I tagged him on Instagram. He, at the time, this was 2017-ish. Speaker 1 (6:41) 2017. And you couldn't, or 2018, one of those years. And on Instagram, you had to, in Instagram stories, you had to have 10,000 followers to do the swipe up. You can't do that on Instagram anymore. And he was in real estate. So I was like, I'll get you, for your birthday, I'll get you 10,000 followers. So I tagged him. Girl! Speaker 2 (7:02) Oh my God. She said Speaker 1 (7:04) so. I tagged him. So I tagged him and he got, you know, 25,000 followers. And it was, he was really, he was so cool in so many ways. Like I literally met his friends on our second date, which is very strange. And we talked about Speaker 3 (7:18) it. Speaker 1 (7:18) I was like, I was like, it just, a friend of his. I love you. So Tinashe, he has a friend who knows Tinashe. She was doing like a Taco Tuesday. I love Speaker 2 (7:31) her. Speaker 1 (7:31) Our first date was like on a Sunday. He was like, I'm going to this Taco Tuesday thing. I know it's our second date, but like, would you want to go with me? I was like, Speaker 2 (7:38) my friends are going to be Speaker 1 (7:40) there. I was like, kind of weird to meet your friends on the second date. But I was like, if it's weird, I'll leave. Girl, I don't. But it was cute? If something's not working, I'll leave. I'm very good that way. I loved his friends. Sometimes you Speaker 3 (7:55) like the friends more than them. Speaker 1 (7:59) I loved his friends. And what was cool and better about this group of friends, he was, at the time, he was 28 years old. But my ex before that, he was like late 30s. All his friends were married with kids. So whenever I hung out with them. It was all about the kids. Right. Yeah. If Speaker 3 (8:19) you're not married and with kids, sometimes they're married with kids. It's like, what are we talking about? Speaker 1 (8:23) When Speaker 3 (8:24) you're a parent, Speaker 1 (8:24) when you're Speaker 3 (8:25) a Speaker 1 (8:25) parent, your whole life is your kids. And that's beautiful. And that's wonderful. I. I don't, I love that for you. No, when I didn't have a kid. But I don't want to talk about your kids. Speaker 3 (8:35) When I didn't have a kid and my friends with a kid, like we would be there and everything like that, but it becomes different because I don't have a kid. You know what I mean? Like even now, the friends that I had that had kids, we've become closer again now that I have a kid. Because Speaker 1 (8:48) the point of, how old is your son now? Three. Oh, you're in the thick of it. You're in the thick of it. Speaker 3 (8:55) Up until you're probably a teenager, really, I feel, or at least 11 or 12. I Speaker 1 (8:58) feel like when you're a parent, you never, ever stop being in the thick of it. You never stop worrying about your kid. Lorraine Toussaint, when we were shooting Orange Together, said, and other people have said this since, that having a child is like having your heart outside of your body. For sure. For sure. And that is devastating. It is. It's devastating. heart is out in the world yeah and all of these things can happen I it's too well that's why Speaker 3 (9:28) they say about postpartum it never ends you just kind of get used to it because that is such a shock and a trauma to like know that like you built someone and you created this child and you don't you know you have to let them into the world it's not really something that you ever really are able to metabolize, you just kind of learn to live with it. You know what I Speaker 1 (9:48) mean? And just trust that you're not effing up in some way. I would be so, I'm never going to have kids, but I would be so Speaker 3 (9:58) terrified Speaker 1 (9:59) that I would be like screwing up the kid. I'm sure you haven't had a chance to read my book because you're a book. But my childhood was so traumatizing. I would never want to do that to someone else. And I wouldn't. I Speaker 3 (10:15) was about Speaker 1 (10:15) to Speaker 3 (10:15) say, that's probably why you wouldn't and probably why you would be an amazing mother because you know how you want it to be loved. Speaker 1 (10:23) Yes. But Speaker 3 (10:23) it doesn't mean you need to have kids. You know what I'm saying. But I'm just saying. Keeping Speaker 1 (10:26) another living, being responsible for. Speaker 1 (10:31) Keeping a human being alive. Yeah. No pets. A pet alive. Do Speaker 3 (10:37) you have pets? No. Speaker 1 (10:37) Yeah. It's Speaker 3 (10:38) the Speaker 1 (10:38) same thing. I've Speaker 3 (10:39) always been hard with that Speaker 1 (10:39) too. Pets get sick. Pets pass away. It's hard with that. Oh my God. You break up with folks, they take the pet back. I have friends who lost their pets and it is... I cry with them. It's devastating. It's too much. It is. It's too much. Speaker 3 (10:53) Wait a minute. So when it comes to you with dating, I literally have not even gotten to the pre-show pull-up questions because I'm just so into where you're taking us. When you are dating, where do you find your dates? Are you online? Is it only out when you're, you know, in mutual gatherings? Like, how do you... Speaker 1 (11:08) Men have not approached me in real life. When's the last time a man approached me in real life? I can't even remember. Speaker 2 (11:17) Actually, I do remember. Speaker 1 (11:18) Oh, well, there's two times that come to mind. 2016, when I first moved to L.A. and I was doing a show called Doubt, there was a background actor from Alabama, and I'm from Alabama. Come on, Bama. And he was so inappropriately, like, trying to get to me. What Speaker 3 (11:33) was he doing? And Speaker 1 (11:33) I was just kind of like, he was cute, but I was like, it was a little much. And, but I, you know, I gave him my number, whatever. We went out, girl. It was giving. This was so, what gagged me was like how bad, he was a hustler. Speaker 1 (11:50) And I was just like, so I'm like, this is 2016. I'm 54 now, so I would have been 44 then. Yes, girl. This is what you have to look forward to. But Speaker 3 (12:00) how do we know that this is how it'll turn out for me? Because you're Speaker 1 (12:03) black, girl. You're black, and it gets better. Look at women in Speaker 3 (12:08) their Speaker 1 (12:08) 50s. Black women in their 50s, it's going to be over for you. Speaker 3 (12:12) Baby, what I'm looking at right now, 54. This is crazy. You look so damn good. God Speaker 1 (12:17) is good. Speaker 3 (12:18) This is why I Speaker 2 (12:20) know that's right. Speaker 1 (12:21) God is good and black is beautiful. Hallelujah. No face surgery yet. I'm not opposed. But I'm so scared. I see those, like... Speaker 3 (12:31) It just goes botched so fast. I Speaker 1 (12:33) should touch my face and, like, if something goes wrong, I don't know. I would freak out. And then you see, like, when you see the facelifts and you're mummified the day after and everything is swollen, that would traumatize me. Anyway, what we were... We'll go back to, yeah. Speaker 3 (12:51) So, Speaker 1 (12:51) dating. So, he, like, you know, like, he... Goes hard. Anyway, we like decide to go out and girl, he comes and picks me up. And in the car on the way to the restaurant, he tells me that his, with his ex-girlfriend, basically like he had a domestic. charge with his ex that he needed expunged and he needed like a couple thousand dollars to get it expunged. This is in the car ride, girl. There was a moment when I was like, at a stop sign, can I like drop and roll out of the car? I was like, this man is telling me in the car that he has been convicted. of domestic violence. And I said, oh, what happened? Yeah, Speaker 3 (13:38) right, because what's going to happen here if I don't respond properly? And then he Speaker 1 (13:42) suggested that it was like her fault. I was not buying it. So I was already not. I was like, this is a chop. Because Speaker 3 (13:49) why would you tell me this? We've just met, babe. But Speaker 1 (13:52) girl, like. Speaker 3 (13:54) People being just so fast to talk. Speaker 1 (13:56) No game. And then I was like, okay, I'm here. So we get to the restaurant. And then we're talking and I don't drive. And he was telling me like, oh, you should get this car. And it was like a car that he kind of wanted to drive, clearly. I was like, this is our first date and you're trying to hustle me. Speaker 3 (14:15) And you Speaker 1 (14:16) have Speaker 3 (14:18) no game. But the fact that people don't know that someone else can tell when they're hustling. I was a grown Speaker 1 (14:24) ass woman. I was 44 years old. I'm like, I'm from New York. You think you're got. Come on, babe. Come on, man. I've had hustlers. Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:33) I've had Speaker 1 (14:34) hustlers. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What a mess. Anyway. Literally. So guys can approach me. But before I was on the apps, I haven't dated in two years. I'm celibate. Purposely? It just kind of happened. It happened and then you stuck with it. Speaker 3 (14:49) I wasn't interested. It just kind of Speaker 1 (14:50) happened. I realized like a year and a half in, I was like, I haven't gone on a date. I haven't had sex. I don't want to have sex. I don't want to go on a date. Speaker 2 (14:59) Yeah. And I just Speaker 1 (15:00) kind of was like, so literally that was six years ago. I met my ex six years ago and we met on Tinder. And so I was swiping and doing all this stuff. I don't know if I can even do that anymore. Speaker 3 (15:12) Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:12) I don't have. I tried to do Speaker 3 (15:13) dating apps before. It's just like, what are we doing? Networking? Speaker 1 (15:16) I don't. Raya. You know her. Speaker 3 (15:20) At that point, I was just getting business meetings. Speaker 1 (15:22) I know. I was so offended. This one guy, after our first date, he sends me a proposal for a documentary. I was like, do you understand how many people want to get a meeting with me? Okay. I don't need to be on Raya for meetings. I have meetings. They need to be on Raya for meetings, clearly. I have meetings. I was so, I was offended. I was like, Speaker 2 (15:46) mother******. Speaker 1 (15:49) You are wasting my Speaker 3 (15:50) time. No, legitimately. Legitimately. It's so crazy how that is. But Speaker 1 (15:55) it makes good stories, though. It does. It Speaker 3 (15:57) does. And it's Speaker 1 (15:58) ultimately not that serious. I mean, it is a waste of time, and time is precious, but it makes a good story for a podcast. Okay. What do you want to talk about, girl? So, pre-show Speaker 3 (16:08) pull-up. I didn't even get into these questions with you. Sorry, girl. But you came in flowing, and we was flowing. I was here for it all. What? Are your big three, do you know? Your sun, your moon, and your rising. Oh, I Speaker 1 (16:19) was supposed to look this up. I'm sorry. I know, only know my son. I am a Gemini. Gemini, Speaker 3 (16:26) June, May? Speaker 1 (16:27) May 29th, 1972. Speaker 3 (16:30) I Speaker 1 (16:30) share a birthday with John F. Kennedy, Latoya Jackson, Rebe Jackson. They were born on the same day. Mel B. Mel B, Speaker 3 (16:40) I love her. Greg Speaker 1 (16:40) Sulkin. Oh, my God. So many people born on my day. You Speaker 3 (16:44) had a long list. That was pretty amazing. I got to find out your rising and your moon. I'm sorry. It has to be Libra or Taurus or something that deals with being sexy. I Speaker 1 (16:51) think at one time it was Sagittarius. I'm not Speaker 3 (16:54) sure. Speaker 1 (16:54) I love that one time. I think I got it. It was listed up, but I just, you know. Okay. Speaker 3 (16:58) We'll look into that. Okay. What is your love language? My Speaker 1 (17:02) love language is touch. Speaker 3 (17:04) Ooh. We love to be touched. Speaker 1 (17:06) And I realized that in my last relationship, and it was so. Because. Speaker 3 (17:09) They was touching you all the time or because they weren't touching you? But it was also Speaker 1 (17:12) his love language. So it was perfect. And it was so healing. He didn't always have the language, bless his heart. Speaker 2 (17:23) But Speaker 1 (17:23) when I woke up in his arms and he would wake up with sleep in his eyes, sexy AF, and look around and he would look for me. And then he would put his arm out and I would get in that nook. And it was everything. It was everything. You Speaker 3 (17:43) sat in this seat. I would literally listen to you tell me a story. Did you do it for your transcendence? Did you do audio book too? Speaker 1 (17:50) We did an audio book. Oh, baby, Speaker 3 (17:51) I'm about to be listening to that in the car. I could listen to you talk all day. Speaker 1 (17:55) I appreciate that. Oh, my gosh, yes. No, the touch was. It was everything. And it really, there was something beautifully healing about