Olivia Fox Cabane (on the science of charisma)

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

In this episode of Armchair Expert, Dax Shepard interviews Olivia Fox Cabane, a leading authority on the science of charisma and author of 'The Charisma Myth.' The conversation explores how charisma is not

Key takeaways

• Charisma is not innate but can be learned through specific behaviors and practiced skills.
• Autism provides a unique perspective on social dynamics, enabling deeper observation and analysis of human behavior.

Main topics

• The science of charisma
• Autism and social perception

Notable quotes

"You're not broken. You're just autistic."

Conclusion

Olivia Fox Cabane demonstrates that charisma is a skill anyone can develop through conscious practice and scientific understanding. Her journey as an

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. Speaker 4 (0:03) I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Speaker 2 (0:04) Padman. Hi. Speaker 3 (0:06) Today's guest is Olivia Fox Caban. She is one of the world's leading authorities on the science of charisma. This Speaker 4 (0:14) was fascinating. Speaker 3 (0:16) Absolutely. And a bestselling author. Her book, The Charisma Myth, is like globally enormous. It's such a huge book. Speaker 4 (0:25) She's worked with some... People, Selena Gomez, ever heard of her? Speaker 3 (0:28) I have and seen her. Yeah, charisma. There's a science to it. Everyone can have more of it. Speaker 4 (0:36) You can, you can learn it. Speaker 3 (0:37) Yeah. Please enjoy Olivia Fox Caban. Speaker 3 (0:58) Where do you live, Olivia? Speaker 1 (1:00) Amsterdam. Speaker 3 (1:01) Oh, Speaker 1 (1:01) you do? Oh, Speaker 3 (1:03) lucky you. How Speaker 1 (1:04) fun. Thank you. Speaker 3 (1:05) How long have you lived there? Speaker 1 (1:06) So we moved there about a year ago, Northern California to Amsterdam, so it was a bit of a transition. I'm autistic, so having a lot of humans around is hard. Not your ideal scenario. Speaker 3 (1:16) So you got diagnosed with autism very late in life. You have 40s? Speaker 1 (1:21) Yeah, so it turns out when I was seven, my parents took me to, so in Paris at the time, to a... child psychologist, and he listed down everything that would be today considered to be the traits of autism, but girls don't have autism at that point in time, right? Speaker 3 (1:34) Right, right, right. Or ADHD. Or Speaker 4 (1:36) anything, Speaker 1 (1:36) right? Speaker 3 (1:37) Yeah. Speaker 1 (1:38) They have hysteria. Yeah. Speaker 3 (1:39) But Speaker 1 (1:40) they can be prescribed vibrators in the 19th Speaker 2 (1:42) century or whatever, right? Speaker 1 (1:43) And so in my 40s, my mother brought this up again and listed the traits, and I was like, hang on, this sounds like autism. So I got a full like 12-hour evaluation, and you'll hear this from a lot of late diagnosed women. All of a sudden, my whole life made sense. Speaker 3 (1:58) Yeah, yeah. It's like, Speaker 1 (1:59) you're not broken. You're just autistic. Yeah. Speaker 3 (2:01) Yes. Speaker 1 (2:02) Oh, my goodness. So we have a Speaker 3 (2:03) friend. We have a close friend who also Speaker 4 (2:04) got a late-in-life diagnosis. Speaker 3 (2:06) You have all these other stories to explain all these other events, and then you kind of just have to wipe the slate, right, and go like, oh, no, that was that, and that was that. Speaker 1 (2:16) But what a relief. You're not a bad horse. You're a zebra. Speaker 3 (2:20) Right, right, right, right, right. Speaker 1 (2:22) Now, a lot of people ask me, how could someone who is autistic write a book on charisma? And my perspective, only an autistic could have written this particular book. Yeah. Because I look at humans from the outside. I'm like, yes, interesting. What a weird species. And so trying to fit in is how I developed all the tools that eventually became the book. Speaker 3 (2:40) Now, dad was a pretty renowned physicist. Yeah. Speaker 1 (2:43) And a mountaineer. So brown belt in judo, seventh ascension of the Salcantara, silver medalist in this. physics thing. Oh, and a chemist as well. Speaker 3 (2:51) Worked with Nobel laureates. Speaker 1 (2:52) Yeah, it was normal for me growing up to have Nobel laureates drop by for breakfast. Yeah. I grew up in Paris, but with no television, no radio, no movies, no news, except for the New Scientist. I didn't know there were other newspapers and New Scientist. And Speaker 3 (3:06) would it be fair to guess that probably there's a lot of people in dad's circle, maybe even dad himself, that are probably somewhere on the spectrum? Oh, Speaker 1 (3:14) I got it from him. Right. Speaker 3 (3:16) So there's like a lot of things compounding. One is like everyone you're exposed to seems to be functioning the way you do. In Speaker 1 (3:22) academia, yes. But the issue is that, so my mother was LA girl, the popular, like people actually like her. Meets my father, they moved to France and she very much had a dream for me to become this popular Parisian girl. Oh, Speaker 3 (3:39) okay. She's Speaker 1 (3:40) a psychoanalyst? Psychotherapist, yes. Speaker 3 (3:41) Psychotherapist, okay. Speaker 1 (3:42) And so... She tries to engineer me to be a social climber. Oh, interesting. Yes, right? And I'm socially awkward to the point of ineptitude. And now we understand autistic. Can you imagine the train wreck that was? Oh, no. Right? I'm half French, half American, half Jewish, half Protestant in blue-blood, aristocratic Paris. Yeah. And autistic. Speaker 3 (4:01) And mom probably has a fantasy about Paris. The Speaker 1 (4:04) Gigi, Sabrina, Audrey Hepburn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a very Speaker 3 (4:08) movie-informed, probably. romanticism about that and what your life would be if you were the toast of that town. Didn't Speaker 1 (4:14) work out Speaker 4 (4:14) that Speaker 1 (4:15) way. Yeah, it Speaker 3 (4:15) normally Speaker 4 (4:15) doesn't. Speaker 3 (4:17) Did academics come easy to you? Speaker 1 (4:19) That did, but you have to understand the French school system. The French school system is not designed to make happy children. It's designed to break them down, just like in a cult, to then build them back up to be proper French citizens. So athletes are dumb. This is an understood thing. And so because I was a swimmer, I was told by my head teacher. Well, you're only fit to become a garbage collector, quite obviously, since you're so stupid as to become an athlete. And this was not unusual. Wow. So academics were relatively easy. Law was fascinating. But for me, the part that was more interesting was this secret manual that everyone else seemed to have gotten on how to interact with humans that I hadn't been given. Speaker 3 (4:56) Right. Your undergrad work was with law? Speaker 1 (5:00) Yeah, I did law in France, then law in Germany, then left for Peru, then New York. So a lot of... The theoretical practice of law was fascinating, but I never used it. I've always believed, and this is probably the autism, that if there's an answer, it's in the library. If you want to fix something, first you figure out if there's science behind it. Turns out there was. And I was really lucky that the turning point in charisma research was 2011. Speaker 3 (5:23) Oh, no kidding. Yeah. And that's when you started. I Speaker 1 (5:26) had started looking at it quite seriously, but I wrote the book in 2012 just after. Yeah, it's Speaker 4 (5:31) great timing. Speaker 1 (5:31) Yeah, it was perfect timing because there had been some studies before then that showed that charisma is just behavior. But 2011 is when they started showing and it's been repeated ever since that charisma is teachable. Right. Speaker 3 (5:42) I think we all come into this conversation assuming you're born with charisma or you're not. Right. And also you can be. Yes, certain people. So it's just not either or. No. It's and. Yeah, Speaker 1 (5:53) there's genetic predispositions. And people always believe, for example, that extroverts are more naturally charismatic. And actually, extroverts have an easier time with certain forms of charisma. Speaker 2 (6:06) Right. Speaker 1 (6:06) Introverts are going to have a better time with different forms of charisma. Right. There's Speaker 3 (6:09) categories of charisma. All sorts Speaker 1 (6:11) of flavors. A lot of people, myself included, first assumed that charisma, you have it here. You don't. You're born with it. Not at all. So the only difference is that the naturals start learning it so early that by the time you're an adult, it looks as if it was natural. People who become very good at it, it's really interesting. Like Steve Jobs, from 1983 to 2011, you can see him learning each of the charismatic elements literally step by step by step. Well, can we start with the definition? Speaker 3 (6:38) Yes, before we get to the definition, can I just ask, what were you teaching at Berkeley? You were teaching some technique that you had been designed for. Harvard and MIT, and you were teaching a class at Berkeley that they had to be security guards? Speaker 1 (6:50) That one, yes. It was the class on first impressions. We have science. We know how first impressions happen. Thin slicing, it's called in technical terms. And so this was a class on how to kill it with your first impressions at a job interview, first date, you name it. And yes, it was quite popular. I Speaker 4 (7:03) bet. Speaker 3 (7:04) Is there a concise version of that? Are there like three hallmarks to that or four or five? Speaker 1 (7:09) Yes. It is true that you never get a second chance to make a good first impression. They happen in under two seconds. So if you want to ace your first impression, the best work actually happens before you walk in the door. Interesting. Speaker 3 (7:20) Tell me more. Speaker 1 (7:21) The vast majority of your first impression is going to be nonverbal, which means that getting your body language right is the critical thing. However, body language is unfakeable. The reason for that is that there's so much body language emitted. Were you aware of your eyelids fluttering in front of your eyes until I mentioned it just now? Right. How about the weight of your tongue in your mouth? How about the position of your toes? Have you forgotten your eyelids again? Yeah. Speaker 4 (7:44) Right? So Speaker 1 (7:45) there's so much body language that if you try to control it consciously, it's impossible. Ten other Speaker 3 (7:49) things will... Speaker 1 (7:50) Yeah. And then it's going to be incongruent. You're Speaker 3 (7:52) going Speaker 1 (7:52) to come across as fake. It's terrible. So instead, the best thing is before you walk in the door, one of the best techniques is to imagine that you're going to be meeting one of your best friends. Because that will get you into the right body language before you walk in the door. Speaker 4 (8:04) Yeah. Then Speaker 1 (8:05) you walk through the door and just be whoever you're going to be. But just by getting this boost of positive body language, that makes the first impression go better. Speaker 3 (8:12) So that's working inside out. Yes. And we can also work outside in on certain things. On Speaker 1 (8:17) certain things, yes. But the body Speaker 3 (8:18) language thing should be inside out. Speaker 1 (8:20) You're always going to be at your most natural. Charisma really can't be faked, but you can gamify your way into it. Speaker 3 (8:26) Yeah. That Speaker 1 (8:27) makes sense. Speaker 3 (8:28) Yeah. Okay, then definitely, sorry. Now, yeah, let's get a definition of charisma. Speaker 1 (8:33) That's going to be a challenge because everyone has their own. So the way I look at charisma is people are always like, is it like charm? No. Charm gets people to like you. You can be incredibly charismatic and be a total asshole, right? Speaker 3 (8:44) So Speaker 1 (8:44) charisma is more what gets people to trust you, to want to follow you. What gets you to inspire people? The impact you have on others. It is a feeling of inspiration. It is a feeling of attraction and almost of magnetism. Speaker 4 (9:01) Interesting. Speaker 3 (9:02) Would we include confidence? Can you have charisma without at least the veil of confidence? Thank Speaker 1 (9:07) you for asking that. No, you can't. Confidence is one of the key components. But here's the really important thing, and I hope we get the chance to talk about this. Self-compassion turns out to be more important than self-confidence. Speaker 3 (9:18) Elaborate. Just quickly. Yeah. If we're talking about leadership positions or follow my vision or trust my vision. We have to have confidence. If that person is not confident about their own vision, there's no way we're getting on board. Speaker 1 (9:30) Yeah, you need to project confidence, but how do you get to confidence? Because telling someone, just be more confident, that's not going to help. For me, it's always the, now what? How? And for so many people in our current environment, it turns out that the one thing... that is the most reductive of confidence is actually self-criticism. So ironically, self-compassion, learning how to forgive yourself, learning how to accept, embrace, and eventually celebrate yourself, that is the path to self-confidence, which becomes really hilarious when I end up working with these big alpha dudes who want to project power, and the path for them is going to be through the tenderness of self-compassion. Yeah, Speaker 3 (10:04) that's got to be a tough sell for them. If they've been like bootstraps, paradigm, ignore pain. Speaker 1 (10:10) Science helps because logic and science, I can show. Have you ever been in a conversation and you say something and all of a sudden your brain goes, oh, that was stupid? Speaker 3 (10:17) Sure. Right? What Speaker 1 (10:18) happens to your face when you're thinking that? It tenses up and cringes. Keep in mind, the other person was looking at you and it was self-directed judgment, but they don't know that. All they know is that while you were looking at them, listening to them, presumably thinking about them, they accurately read coldness, criticism, and judgment on your face. So naturally, they're going to assume that that was about them. So two conclusions from that. One, when you see someone have that facial expression, I spend my time in other people's heads. 80 % of the time, it's about them, not you. Yeah. And two, this is why self-compassion and self-forgiveness are so bloody important, is because self-criticism fucks up your body language. Speaker 4 (10:57) Yeah. Interesting. So the Speaker 1 (10:58) logic is, if you want to stop messing up your body language, learn how to forgive yourself. And that is how that will unblock the self-confidence that will then give you the power, that will then give you the charisma. Then you can rule the world and blah, blah, blah. Speaker 3 (11:09) Okay, so for starters, we should talk about what the downriver effects of having charisma are. It's a very powerful tool. Speaker 1 (11:19) Too much so in a sense. I wasn't when I first wrote the book. At this point, I am genuinely concerned. that these days in this attention economy, charisma matters more than intelligence, integrity, competence. It's a problem. Well, yes. Speaker 3 (11:33) In an attention economy, charisma gets attention. It Speaker 1 (11:37) does. Speaker 3 (11:37) Yeah, more than boring, well-thought-out game plans. Speaker 1 (11:40) One of the reasons I'm so desperate to democratize charisma is precisely to level the playing field. I like that. Right? So that it stops having this outsized impact. So in terms of what it does, so charismatic people have better quality of life, have less stress, they get paid more, like all things, but even like, Physicians who are charismatic, their patients like them better, follow the treatment plan better. Oh, Speaker 3 (11:59) interesting. You're more effective. Speaker 1 (12:00) It's fun. And charismatic teachers, like you see the downstream effect everywhere. Speaker 3 (12:04) More romantic options. Obviously. The less stress thing is like, who wouldn't want that? Interesting, right? Yeah. But Speaker 1 (12:11) that's because a topic that you have both explored, charisma is tied to status. Definitely. Speaker 3 (12:15) And high Speaker 1 (12:16) status equals less stress. Speaker 3 (12:17) Yeah, yeah. More resources. Yeah. Okay. What are the pitfalls of charisma? Speaker 1 (12:23) So the obvious ones are with charisma, you can do bad things, right? There's been books and books written about this. Hitler, incredibly charismatic. Need I give a worse example? Speaker 3 (12:31) Dynamic speaker. I mean, Speaker 1 (12:33) Trump is charismatic. Yes, incredibly charismatic. So those pitfalls are obvious. The less obvious ones are the pitfalls of being charismatic to the charismatic person. Such as you can convince people even when you're wrong, which can have some seriously bad effects. You can shut down brainstorming. Now this is going to start sounding a bit unbelievable, but I'm always like, no, please believe me, this really happens. If you forget to turn the charisma off, people can get addicted to it. You see it in Silicon Valley all the time that the VCs fund the most charismatic. Yeah. Speaker 4 (13:10) Oh, I'm sure. Can you tell immediately when someone walks in if they're charismatic Speaker 1 (13:15) or not? Yes, but so can you. Yeah, you know when someone walks in, you're in Hollywood, both of you, right? Right, that's true. Speaker 4 (13:21) Nearly Speaker 3 (13:22) everyone we talk to is pretty charismatic. We're spoiled. Speaker 4 (13:24) Yeah, I guess so. Because they're Speaker 3 (13:25) professors, they're authors, they're leaders of some kind in some way, I think. Back to the liability of it, it's a unique test for people who are super duper charismatic, who genuinely everyone likes and a lot of people are attracted to. That's just a different way to go through life. Speaker 1 (13:40) Are you going to have the ethics to not give in to the temptation? Yeah. Speaker 3 (13:43) I Speaker 1 (13:44) mean, Speaker 3 (13:44) outsized ethics. It's a problem. Yeah. Because a lot Speaker 4 (13:47) of people are not using their powers for good. Is Speaker 3 (13:50) there anything when presented with abundance that people generally don't indulge in? It's like if you're at an all-you-can-eat bar, you eat more than you normally do. We're kind of context creatures. Not Speaker 4 (13:59) everyone does, but some people do. I think some people do monitor that, even if they have the ability. Speaker 3 (14:05) Yeah, I just think if you check into a hotel and they go like, hey, by the way, unlimited massages versus you have to pay for a massage. My guess is you're going to get one massage that week that you're at the hotel if you pay for it. And then if it's unlimited, you're probably going to get 10. But Speaker 4 (14:16) that's not a bad Speaker 1 (14:17) thing. Speaker 3 (14:18) Right. I'm trying to point out that when you give people abundance, they generally indulge in the abundance. Most humans. Speaker 1 (14:24) It comes with risks. Let me put it this way. Yeah, it comes with risks. For sure. Speaker 3 (14:27) Okay, so let's demystify charisma. Like a myth of attractiveness versus extroversion. There's like all these myths, right? Speaker 1 (14:35) Yes, Speaker 3 (14:35) yes, yes, yes. Thank you, Speaker 1 (14:35) thank you. So the halo effect of beauty, right? Are physically attractive people at an advantage in terms of being charismatic? Sure. However, you can be incredibly charismatic and profoundly ugly. Hello, Winston Churchill. And in fact, being more charismatic will make you appear more attractive and for men, taller. Interesting. I can't remember if it was one or two inches, but it's a couple of inches taller that you are rated as if you are charismatic. And since charisma is purely behavioral, and when I say purely behavioral, researchers in controlled laboratory experiments were able to raise and lower people's level of charisma as if they were turning a dial, literally. Wow. It's that behavioral. Speaker 3 (15:13) Yeah, we'll find out. We got to know exactly what that behavior is that they were able to get results that quick and acute. Speaker 1 (15:20) First one is, is it attractiveness? Attractiveness helps, but is not necessary. Second, is it extroversion? Extroversion helps for certain forms of charisma, but is absolutely not necessary. And in fact, because one of the components of charisma is presence, the ability to be entirely focused on the other person. Introverts are at a huge advantage, especially for certain forms of charisma, because they are genuinely able to focus on the other person, don't need to be in the spotlight all the time. Yeah. Speaker 3 (15:46) Now this goes back to, so... Obviously, too, charisma's got to be cultural. It's got to be fluid, right? Because even when you say, like, the VC people are betting on the founders who are most charismatic. Well, what I immediately go is, like, I've met a lot of these founders. They are not your and I's traditional definition of charismatic. Yes, Speaker 1 (16:05) thank you, thank you, thank you. So is charisma cultural? Yes. What you've just defined perfectly, thank you, is cultural is not just... Is charisma different in the U.S., in Europe, in the Middle East, in Asia? Yes, but also subcultural. Speaker 3 (16:18) The South. Speaker 1 (16:19) Or the Silicon Valley charisma has a certain amount of cocky arrogance to it that VCs love. For example, there's some fascinating stuff like glasses. How do glasses impact the perception of someone? And so we know that you get an intelligence rating bump in Europe, in the U.S., in Japan, but not in India. Why? We don't know. Speaker 3 (16:40) Wow, Monica. That's wild, Speaker 4 (16:42) right? Speaker 1 (16:43) The shape of your glasses, if they're rounder, you will be rated as friendlier, warmer. If they're more square, it'll be more competent, intelligent. So there's fascinating things. And I do a fair amount of work in the Middle East and handshakes, which I spend a lot of time on, especially with students, because no one teaches kids these days how to shake hands properly. But when I'm in Dubai, I have to say, everything I say is North American specific. So please take this with... Not just a grain of salt, but the whole shaker. There are certain circumstances where you just won't shake hands. Eye contact. Completely different in Asia and in the US. So charisma, absolutely completely cultural and subcultural. This is where adaptability is so important. There's very few tools that are always good and always bad per se. It's always what is best for you, your personality, your neurotype, the situation you're in and the goal. Speaker 3 (17:30) Yeah, you have to, I imagine, fortify your strengths. You're not going to ask an introvert to become an extrovert. Speaker 1 (17:36) Play to your strengths, manage around your weaknesses. Yes. Okay, Speaker 3 (17:39) what are the characteristics of charisma? Presence, power, and warmth. Walk me through those. Yeah, so Speaker 1 (17:44) the charisma equation, if you think about it, it's called different things in different studies. But the components of power, which is sometimes called dominance or assertiveness or status or competence, but essentially it's the ability to affect the world around you. And if you think of it, it's can you move mountains for me? If you think of it from an evolutionary perspective, what we're asking when we're meeting someone for the first time is essentially fight or flight, friend or foe. Yeah. And fight or flight is the power question. Friend or foe is the warmth question. Can you move mountains for me? Do you want to move mountains for me? Because from an evolutionary perspective, if you meet someone who can move the mountains but has no interest in doing so, it doesn't change your life. If you meet someone who would love to move the mountains for you, but doesn't have the power, doesn't change your life. You need both. If you meet someone who has both of those, but is completely distracted and unaware of which mountains you need moved, same thing. So the way I like to look at it, this is purely a personal metaphor, is you know the way that we overreact to sugar, fat, and salt? I'd like you to think of power, presence, and warmth the same way. Each one of these is attractive on its own, but you put all three together, you get junk food. Interesting. Speaker 3 (18:55) Can we drill in on the status thing a little bit? Because that's my great fascination as someone who is obsessed with anthro and just statuses. The most, you know, adaptive, functional thing of a multi-member group. Who decides what, who gets what resources, all this stuff. I happen to think we're so, so aware of it at all times in a way that we don't realize. So your hunch about charisma is I can benefit from this, right? You have to assess that. This is beneficial to me. They're friendly. They have some powers. And I'm going to benefit somehow. And Speaker 2 (19:28) I just wonder how much of it is simply like there is some bizarre Speaker 3 (19:32) comfort in knowing what the hierarchy is just for the sake of knowing. Because when you don't know the hierarchy and you piss off an alpha or a high status person, there's hell to pay in a tribe. Which Speaker 1 (19:45) is a problem for autistics often because they don't see the hierarchy, yes. Right. Speaker 3 (19:48) And so I'm just curious, like what percentage we think is just also just this like desire for, okay, where's everyone at? Okay. It's comforting to know that person is clearly the leader. The high status. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:59) It's a big part, but without the warmth, it can read just as threatening. If it doesn't have the other two elements, what you get is someone impressive, but not necessarily charismatic. So here's a fun piece on status. So these days I mask very little in autistic terms, especially since the diagnostic I've been like. Fuck it, I'm just going to be me. Speaker 4 (20:17) Which Speaker 1 (20:17) means that I have a lot of autistic tics that I would otherwise have suppressed when I was trying to be just pure charisma. And a lot of the behaviors that are autistic stimming are also forms of low status signaling. So self-soothing behaviors. What people who feel they are low status do when they are faced with someone who's a higher status is going to be a lot of self-soothing, touching their clothing. their hair and this is, am I okay? Am I right? And that is some pretty self-soothing behavior, which guess what? Is autism 101. Speaker 3 (20:50) Right. But might read to others as low status. Correct. It does read to others as low status. Speaker 1 (20:55) And so if you're optimizing purely for charisma. and you're willing to pay the price of masking if you're autistic, then yeah, you should optimize for stillness and poise. But masking comes at a cost. Speaker 3 (21:10) Yeah. Let's get into this. That Speaker 4 (21:12) sounds miserable. I Speaker 3 (21:13) think you handle it perfectly in the book, which is like, here is an option for you. You don't have to pursue it. But if you desire this, yes, some masking is going to be required. Now we got to get into the nuance of what is destructive masking, what is harmful, what is fine. Speaker 1 (21:28) Yeah. Speaker 3 (21:28) So for people who don't have any experience with that, yeah, just talk a little bit about masking and how it can be destructive and how sometimes it's fine. Speaker 1 (21:35) So with the caveat that I'm not an autism expert, I only know the lived experience. Masking is the autistic code switching to pass as normal. And so one of the challenges I had to the book is that a lot of people were saying, isn't the book just masking a one-on-one for autistics? And the answer is yes, absolutely. For neurotypicals, it'll make you charismatic. For autistics, if you do everything in there, it may lead you to appear as neurotypical. Should we have to mask? Ideally not, of course. Yeah, Speaker 3 (22:06) in a dream world, no. In a dream world, no. But Speaker 1 (22:08) this is the world we have. And so if you have to mask, which you do in certain cases, here are the least harmful ways I know, the most healthy ways I know, all things considered. to mask. And that's why we flagged them in the book. And I had an autistic psychiatrist review the book to flag anything that could be constituting as masking. So what are the risks of masking? It can be pretty heavy. If you mask for too long without any breaks and with certain kinds of unhealthy masking, especially for autistic women, it can lead to burnout, depression, suicidal ideation. The stats are dire. Because Speaker 3 (22:42) it's energy consumptive. It's Speaker 1 (22:44) energy consumptive, but it's also... And this is where I don't know the science very well, but masking is doing violence to the autistic nervous system. The autistic nervous system is wired differently than the neurotypical nervous system. That's one of the key definitions. And so masking is suppressing all the self-regulation tools that Speaker 4 (23:01) you'd be Speaker 1 (23:02) using otherwise. Speaker 4 (23:03) Exactly. You're building up. Instead of soothing, you're actively not soothing. And then what happens Speaker 1 (23:07) if you don't soothe? It builds up. Meltdown. During the evaluation, I confidently told the doctor, no, no, but I don't stim. At all. It's just not me. And then I see a video of me in front of a class and I'm rocking. But it wasn't back and forth, which is why it was side to side. Totally Speaker 4 (23:20) different. You're like, that's not it. That's Speaker 3 (23:22) not Speaker 4 (23:22) stimming. Speaker 3 (23:22) That's sea sitting. That's it. I always thought it was Speaker 4 (23:25) sitting. We Speaker 3 (23:27) one time interviewed a clinical sociopath and she was explaining her mask, which was fascinating. We encouraged her like, go fucking mask off. Like, what would this conversation be like? Mask off. And she's like, okay, what'd you get arrested for? Like she just went directly into how she would prefer to communicate in real life, which is like, let's get to it. I want to ask the gnarliest question about you and I want to really dig in on that. And I thought, oh yeah, that's exhaustive to be living a version of yourself that just really isn't you. Speaker 1 (23:55) Yeah. One of the reasons that I'm more comfortable here than I would be in a corporate interview is because I've listened to a few of your podcasts. You guys do real. And so I knew that it would be okay if I didn't mask. Yes. Whereas I'm going on some other interviews later in the week and they've given me the guidelines and I've been like, this is going to be. You're Speaker 3 (24:14) going to be buttoned up. Oh Speaker 1 (24:16) boy. Yeah. Speaker 3 (24:17) Oh, I'm so much more interested in someone stimming or doing whatever thing they're doing. Yeah. I kind of love it. See, Speaker 4 (24:25) that's what's so funny because I'm like, that is. charismatic to me, like, I think that's confident, being very real. What Speaker 1 (24:31) you Speaker 3 (24:32) are, unapologetically. Yeah. Speaker 4 (24:34) So Speaker 1 (24:34) you'll see me in literally two different modes of charisma. You can see me on stage in recordings when I was in my 20s, and I was, like, code switched 100%. So I am fully polished, on stage, perfect New Yorker. And these days, it's a different kind of charisma where I'm like, fuck it, I don't have anything to prove anymore. So I'm Speaker 2 (24:52) going Speaker 1 (24:52) to walk around in my pink. fleece onesie, but it's a different kind of charisma. And what's really interesting for me is if you look at generationally, the charisma that boomers respond to versus the charisma that millennials and Gen Z. So Gen Z wants it raw. They want authentic charisma, warts and all. Speaker 3 (25:09) Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 (25:09) And if you're too polished, actually for them, that's a problem. Cultural charisma, generational charisma. It's been fascinating. Speaker 3 (25:15) Yeah. Okay, what are the obstacles to presence, power, and warmth? And maybe we could go through some like... Hard examples of how someone presents power, how they present warmth. Speaker 1 (25:25) Yeah, so let me start with presence because that's always the one that people overlook. And in essence, it's kind of the foundation. The way I see it, the reason I always work from the inside out is that I could give you all the surface tools for charisma, but that's like building pretty balconies and turrets on a house with faulty foundations, right? At the first earthquake, everything falls apart. So Speaker 3 (25:45) presence is really the ground Speaker 1 (25:47) of charisma. Speaker 1 (25:49) It is simply the ability to be present moment by moment. Certain studies call it attentiveness, but others receptivity. But essentially, it is the ability to give the other person your full attention. In today's world, that is increasingly difficult. Here's the good news. Even a tiny increase in your ability to be present is going to have outsized effects because everyone else is so distracted. Speaker 3 (26:13) That makes me think of people thought George Washington was so smart. because he was the only person in the Continental Congress that didn't talk. Everyone else was constantly monologuing to try to jockey for who was the smartest in this room of very smart people. And people were just enamored with his ability to be quiet. And they projected onto him, oh, he's so confident and self-assured. He doesn't even need to get in the fray. Two Speaker 1 (26:39) things about that. A professional negotiator told me he could predict the outcome of any negotiation. Just by looking at the relative level of comfort of the participants with silence. Speaker 2 (26:49) Whoever Speaker 1 (26:50) is the least comfortable with silence loses. That's one thing. Second thing, have you ever been in a conversation when only half your brain is present, the other half is busy doing something else? Totally. Speaker 3 (27:00) 95 % of my conversations, yeah. Speaker 1 (27:02) Did you think the other person notices? I guess I think they Speaker 4 (27:06) don't, Speaker 1 (27:06) but they probably do. We assume they don't. What actually happens is that your eyes slightly glaze over a tiny bit. There's a split second delay in your facial reactions. Speaker 4 (27:14) I'm like so in my head right now. Speaker 1 (27:17) So we can read each other's faces in under 17 milliseconds. Speaker 4 (27:21) Oh my God. We are Speaker 1 (27:22) so good at detecting anything that is incongruent. And so the problem is that if you're not fully attentive in the conversation, that lag is going to give the impression of incongruence and it can make you appear inauthentic just because you were still writing emails or on Slack in your head. So yeah, the ability to be fully present is really the ground for all charisma. Speaker 3 (27:43) And what's a practice someone can get into that would help? Speaker 1 (27:47) There are lots of bigger tools, but if you want the two-second tool, if you're in a conversation, you feel that your brain is somewhere else, focus on your toes. the physical sensation in your toes. Because what this does is it forces your brain to scan your whole body from head to, of course, toe. And it gets you very present in the moment. You only do that for a moment, then you get back to the conversation, obviously. Right. But yeah, your toes is one of the best tools for instant presence. I Speaker 3 (28:10) love Speaker 1 (28:10) that. Speaker 3 (28:11) How about before you enter the situation where you're liable to have a wandering mind is like breathing helpful? Breathing is Speaker 1 (28:18) really good if you're in a situation where you feel safe doing this. If you're in a headspace where you feel safe doing this, a whole check-in with your emotions, where's my head at, where's my heart at, that can be a very grounding experience if it's appropriate for you. I mean, it's bloody uncomfortable, but meditation is one of the best training grounds for charisma. It's a gym for the mind. Speaker 2 (28:42) Stay tuned for more Armchair Speaker 3 (28:44) Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway. You absolutely convinced yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeah, checking first is the right move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it. Add an Allstate Roadside plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms and availability. Insurance by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance by Allstate Motor Club, Incorporated, and Allstate Affiliate. Speaker 3 (29:36) What about power? Speaker 1 (29:37) People think of power as the ability to command people. It's not. It is simply giving the impression that you have the ability to affect the world around you. Power is read almost entirely through body language. And what happens really is that what they're looking for, because they don't have the time as in anything else in first impressions, they don't have the time to figure out how much power you genuinely have. This is the rule. In general, people will accept whatever you project. So if you seem confident, people will assume that you have something to be confident about. And this is where we get into the questions of, do you understand the difference between self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-compassion? You should tell us. Okay, so self-confidence is your belief in your ability to do something or to learn how to do it. Self-esteem is how much you like yourself. Interesting. Both of these are positively correlated with narcissism, which is not a Speaker 4 (30:38) good Speaker 1 (30:38) thing. Self-compassion, on the other hand, that's how you handle yourself when shit goes wrong. And that is the one that is the biggest predictor of health. So if you ever want to have an expert on self-compassion, Kristen Neff is the grande dame in that field. Speaker 3 (30:52) What word did you just use? Speaker 1 (30:54) Grand dame. Speaker 3 (30:55) Oh, the grand dame. Speaker 1 (30:56) I love it. I love it. With French, it's like renaissance. I can't say it the American way. It's just wrong. Speaker 3 (31:03) So the big person in this field. The Speaker 1 (31:05) science is fascinating on the impact of self-compassion on people who have higher self-compassion tolerate mistakes better. They can admit them better. They have fewer sick days. It's just a predictor of so many things that, honestly, corporations should be testing for self-compassion when they hire people. Speaker 3 (31:20) I would imagine it makes you less judgmental towards others as well. Yes, it does. turned on the dial on yourself, it's easier to extend that to others. Speaker 1 (31:27) It's incredible. So if you look at self-compassion, if you look at what really lowers confidence, you've got really two big beasts. You've got the imposter syndrome, which a lot of people hear about, and the inner critic. And I see them kind of differently because the imposter syndrome attacks what you're doing. You know, you don't know what you're doing. It's only a matter of time before you're found out and exposed as a fraud. The inner critic is worse in a way because it attacks who you are. The way I look at it is that the imposter syndrome, you've got a good chance of learning how to dismantle it. The inner critic will be with you for life. It's like your shadow. You'll never get rid of your shadow. Speaker 3 (32:02) I think we have a lot of people that think they're suffering from imposter syndrome, but it's really the self Speaker 1 (32:07) -critic. And they're... Different. And they have different remedies. Speaker 3 (32:11) The Speaker 1 (32:11) imposter Speaker 3 (32:11) syndrome is so common with people we interview because they're in extraordinary situations, which no one's really certain if they're really ready to be in or capable of handling. But I think sometimes you see that window has closed for when you should feel that way. And