Angela Duckworth #3 (on bringing out your best)

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

In this episode of Armchair Expert, psychologist and MacArthur Fellow Angela Duckworth returns to discuss her new book 'Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best.' The

Key takeaways

• Our surroundings and social environments play a more significant role in our success than we often acknowledge.
• Achieving goals rarely leads to sustained happiness; fulfillment comes from meaningful connections and growth.

Main topics

• The power of environment in shaping behavior and success
• Grit vs. situational factors in achievement

Notable quotes

"The people around us deserve more credit for our success."

"Achieving goals rarely delivers happiness. It's not about the finish line; it's about who you become along the way."

Conclusion

Angela Duckworth emphasizes that true success isn't driven solely by individual grit, but

Transcript preview

Speaker 2 (0:00) Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. Oh my Lord, top 10 favorite guests returning. I love when she's here. She's so fun to talk to. You can hit her with any topic and she has data on it. Angela Duckworth. Angela is a psychologist, a MacArthur fellow, and a bestselling author of, of course, Grit. She is the Rosa Lee and Egbert Chang professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Her new book. which is a fun counterpiece to Grit. Yes. I love this book so much. It's called Situated. Find the people and places that bring out your best. Please enjoy our friend Angela Duckworth. Speaker 1 (0:56) I'm getting comfortable. I'm going to take my outfit, Speaker 3 (0:58) actually. Speaker 1 (0:59) I think it's just because we're small. How tall are you? Speaker 3 (1:02) I'm five feet and a half inch. I Speaker 1 (1:06) am 5'1". My God, I'm taller than you. You're taller than me. Now, quickly, Speaker 2 (1:11) since you're both barefoot, once you achieve that goal, Speaker 1 (1:14) I Speaker 2 (1:14) want you guys to stand back to back because I do think it's interesting what they think their height is. And I have found that I think when you get your license. Speaker 1 (1:22) Yeah. Speaker 2 (1:23) Whatever the tallest you ever were when you got your license, you just kind of cement that in your brain. Speaker 1 (1:27) Forever? Yeah. And you may no longer be? Speaker 2 (1:29) No longer be, slash it might have not been a very accurate, right? I'm meeting guys all the time that are like, I'm this height. And I'm like, well, either I'm completely wrong or you're wrong. That's Speaker 3 (1:38) because men really want to be tall. So I think they do a little padding. There's Speaker 1 (1:42) a Speaker 3 (1:42) gender difference. You don't think the Speaker 2 (1:44) five-footer, like if you're four, eleven and a half, you're saying five. I think girls do it too. Not as bad. Not as Speaker 3 (1:49) bad. I Speaker 2 (1:49) agree. Speaker 3 (1:49) I Speaker 2 (1:49) don't think it's as Speaker 3 (1:50) much of an epidemic. Speaker 2 (1:52) Yeah. But Speaker 3 (1:52) also, I've measured myself many times because I also, this is a huge brag. Speaker 3 (1:59) Exactly. It's Speaker 1 (2:00) a Speaker 3 (2:00) brag because my wingspan is also exactly five feet and a half inch. You're like a Leonardo Speaker 1 (2:06) da Vinci. I am. I can't remember the name of that drawing. It's in my book. Yeah. Vesuvius Man. Oh, yes, yes, yes. So you'd be a Vesuvius woman. Yeah. But you don't have scoliosis, so I just want you to know I'm a 5'4 person in a 5'1 body. Oh, ow. Yeah. But I just want you to know that I am a 5'4 person. Okay. You can interview me as a 5'4 person. I think I'm a 6' person and a 5' body. Speaker 3 (2:30) But not because of scoliosis. No, just Speaker 1 (2:32) the way I behave. Just because, just spiritually. Speaker 2 (2:34) Do you know who has savage scoliosis? Who? Usain Bolt. Speaker 1 (2:40) Did you ever have Usain Bolt on? Speaker 2 (2:41) No, I would love to. He doesn't Speaker 1 (2:42) do any interviews, does he? No, I've never heard one. Speaker 2 (2:45) Maybe if we went to Jamaica. I think he's in Jamaica. Speaker 1 (2:47) It'd be a great interview. Speaker 2 (2:48) Of course. Speaker 1 (2:49) Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (2:50) I would love it even if we didn't talk. I would just stare at him. Yeah. My God. I Speaker 1 (2:53) never really got the whole skinny on what it was like to have Brad Pitt, but he was like, but then he was Brad Pitt. And I never got the answer to, okay, is he as drop dead gorgeous in person? Yeah, he's Speaker 3 (3:02) beautiful. Speaker 2 (3:03) Let's let Monica evaluate all those Speaker 1 (3:04) things. Speaker 3 (3:06) He's sweet. Like, he's very nice. He's engaging. Speaker 2 (3:10) Playful. Speaker 3 (3:11) Yeah, I love him. Super Speaker 1 (3:12) present. Very present. I love him, too. Well, Speaker 2 (3:15) to Speaker 1 (3:16) be Speaker 2 (3:16) human is to love him. That's how we will eventually test AI for their humanness. The Brad Pitt test? Yeah, like rank Brad Pitt against— How Speaker 1 (3:24) much Speaker 2 (3:24) would Speaker 1 (3:24) you—like, what would you do to be Speaker 3 (3:26) in Speaker 1 (3:26) the same room as Brad Pitt? Speaker 2 (3:27) They'll never get it. Speaker 3 (3:28) You know, this is selfish, probably, but I do judge a lot, especially men, on how much they— interact with me. Oh, right. As opposed to Speaker 1 (3:37) him? Speaker 3 (3:39) Yeah, just straight on to him and not really engaging with me at all. But not Speaker 1 (3:43) because you're a female, just because you're the other person. Because I'm the other person, exactly. Speaker 3 (3:46) But women almost always engage with me. Speaker 1 (3:50) Oh. For me, I'm always paying. I was like, where's the gender thing come in? Go on, go on. Speaker 2 (3:54) That's great. This is so fun to talk about because I rarely get judgmental of the men. Part of me is just like, I at least see the history, right? It's just like, oh, yeah, you're a dude. You don't know either of us, but I'm a man. I'm talking a lot. I'm tall. I'm going to, you know. Speaker 1 (4:05) Yeah. Speaker 2 (4:05) He's identified me as having status in the room. Whatever weird shit's going on. I was Speaker 1 (4:08) going Speaker 2 (4:08) to say, Speaker 1 (4:09) like, let's say that, too. Yeah. I am a Speaker 2 (4:11) little judgy. Occasionally, we get women in who never look at Monica. And those, I'm more curious about those people. Speaker 1 (4:17) And you're like minus seven. But are they experts? Speaker 2 (4:20) I Speaker 1 (4:21) just found out that this is an expert interview. Obviously, I'm not a celebrity, but I didn't know the rhythm. I didn't know that there were like... Separation. I'm a little Speaker 2 (4:29) hurt by that, to be honest with you. How could you not know that? Speaker 1 (4:33) Wait, do you listen to podcasts? Yeah, Speaker 2 (4:35) Malcolm Gladwell's A Revisionist History. You do? Oh, my God. I love Speaker 1 (4:38) it Speaker 2 (4:38) more than anything. Speaker 1 (4:38) Minus one for not listening to podcasts. I don't listen to any podcasts. Speaker 2 (4:41) That's fine. That's fair. If Speaker 1 (4:42) you start, it needs to be. I'm going to start here. But Speaker 2 (4:46) here's the grass is always greener. So Ed Norton, Edward Norton's big complaint. I don't know how many times we've had him on, maybe three or four times. Three. Speaker 3 (4:53) And Speaker 2 (4:53) we're friends, and he's constantly like. I want to be, what color do we do? Green? Speaker 3 (4:59) Oh, he wants to be an actor. Speaker 2 (5:00) He's like, I want to be a green, because the celebrities are yellow. It's just to keep it in the timeline. He Speaker 1 (5:05) wants Speaker 2 (5:05) to be green. He's like dying to be green. He was green this last time. Can't Speaker 1 (5:09) he just be green on acting? Yes. Well, Speaker 2 (5:11) he was. Last time he was here, we had him green, just because we also had Olivia Wilde on, and it was the week of that movie, so she got yellow. But he wanted it. Speaker 3 (5:20) And Speaker 2 (5:20) then. The experts are mad they're not yellow. He is Speaker 3 (5:24) green, though. He has so much knowledge on everything, not just acting. He's very, very knowledgeable. So I understand why he wants to be seen as that. Yeah, Speaker 2 (5:33) yeah, yeah. He's the polymath squared. He Speaker 1 (5:35) is. Speaker 2 (5:35) Have you ever met him or talked to him? I Speaker 3 (5:37) have Speaker 1 (5:37) never met him. I have watched him. I'm sure he would love to meet you. I like him. Yes. I like his work, as they say. I bet he Speaker 2 (5:43) knows your work. Speaker 1 (5:44) Mm-hmm. You think? I do. What Speaker 2 (5:45) is Speaker 1 (5:45) he interested in? He's interested in human behavior? Everything. Are you asking him? Speaker 2 (5:50) I'm going to ask him. Speaker 1 (5:50) Yeah. Now, if he says what you need to say. He's going to be like, no. I'll say he didn't respond. I'll say he didn't respond. Yeah. Speaker 2 (5:57) Do you know who Angela Duckworth is? Speaker 1 (5:59) God, this is like some kind of psychological test. It is. For me. It's a psychological test for me. Speaker 2 (6:03) By the way, we're in an experiment right now. Did we not have you sign waivers? Yeah, I Speaker 3 (6:07) just Speaker 1 (6:07) signed a consent form. By the way, can I just thank you for reading my book? Of course. Thank you for reading my book. Of course. Anyway, thank you for reading my book. Speaker 2 (6:15) I put a blurb in your fucking book. Of course I read your book. You did, and I think Speaker 1 (6:17) I'm the second one that you've done, right? In Speaker 2 (6:19) general, let me tell you, because this will be fun for you, I think. I've been asked many times, and they always ask you to do a blurb for their book, and you haven't read it, right? They ask you before you've read it, and I think it's a very awkward thing to be asked because it's like, well, I haven't read it. I don't know if I want to endorse this. Then what I would have to do ethically is say, well, maybe let me read the book. I don't Speaker 1 (6:40) want Speaker 2 (6:40) to endorse something I don't like. Speaker 1 (6:41) I see what you're saying. You're like, please. And by the way, here, I've written it for you and you haven't even read the book. Speaker 2 (6:45) Exactly. And then even worse, I go, well, I would need to read it so that I really believe the thing. And then they give it to me and I don't like it. And then I have to call them. And so, you know, I don't like it. So I don't Speaker 1 (6:54) want Speaker 2 (6:54) to give a quote. Speaker 1 (6:55) Right. Speaker 2 (6:56) This is a testament to how confident I was in you that I was like, yeah, I probably will. Let me read it. Normally, I don't want to deal with that situation where if I read it, I don't like it. Speaker 1 (7:06) Here's a story. A young woman author who shall remain nameless sent me an email maybe 15 years ago that said, I wrote this book and I'd like you to endorse it. And I've written the endorsement for you, which you can edit or not, right? And it did have an attachment, which was the book. So it wasn't like, I'll never show you the book. But I was on that day in that moment. in my life, deeply offended. I wrote back. I didn't swear or anything, but I was like, you know, who are you? Like, Speaker 2 (7:34) I Speaker 1 (7:34) was indignant. I expressed indignation. Oh, wow. Did you know Speaker 3 (7:36) who this person was? She was like an acquaintance. Okay. Right? Speaker 1 (7:40) She was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. But I will tell you, it has haunted me for all those years. And like, a year ago, I was reading this novel called The Correspondent. Stop. Speaker 3 (7:50) Love it? Yeah. Love it? Did it crush you? No, everyone's obsessed with Speaker 1 (7:55) it. Speaker 3 (7:55) Did you read it? No, I haven't read Speaker 1 (7:56) it. Speaker 3 (7:56) Okay, that is in Speaker 1 (7:57) your future. Yeah, I want to. Speaker 3 (7:58) You have to Speaker 1 (7:58) read it. It's all told in letters, so it's all epistles. Like, there's no narrative. There's just letters that you read, like, one after the other. It's correspondence, and it's mostly the correspondence of the narrator. It's a novel, so it's fiction. Anyway, in the novel, there is this kind of, like, reckoning with your sins. And so that... episode where perhaps that young author was like out of step because like who asked somebody to like, oh, and here's the blur, right? But you know who was more out of step? I was out of step because I was so mean. I was like, oh, she was devastated. So I reached out to her. Like I found her. I was like, no, she's no longer here. But now she's there and I found her. And I said, do you remember all these many years ago when you reached out? for an endorsement and I was deeply offended, I was like, here's what I want to say. Who am I to be deeply offended? Somebody told you that you should do this and I'm really sorry. Wow, that's great. She wrote me back in about six milliseconds. She was like, oh my God, thank you. And is Speaker 2 (8:58) this the author of Correspondence? Speaker 1 (9:00) It is not the author Speaker 2 (9:01) of Correspondence. Wouldn't that be great closure? That's what I thought Speaker 1 (9:04) this was going Speaker 2 (9:05) to be. Speaker 1 (9:05) It's Virginia Evans? I wish it were. Actually, I don't think she would have done this. And also, the Correspondence was, I think, her first book. So she couldn't have done this because it was Speaker 3 (9:12) like Speaker 1 (9:12) 15 years ago, so that would be before she wrote a book. And I can't remember the exact narrative detail, but it's like a little bit of a redemption story. And I remember... in the narrative, and maybe I misheard, that there was like a letter of like kind of confession. And so this was like my letter of confession to this stranger. By the way, she's lovely. I'm not going to tell you who she is, but she's great. Speaker 2 (9:31) Has she found success? Speaker 1 (9:32) She's been successful. Oh, great. Speaker 2 (9:34) She Speaker 1 (9:34) wrote another book. Oh, great. She did not ask me to endorse her. I wonder why. If she writes a third book, she could ask me and I'd be like, yeah, before I read it, but I will read Speaker 2 (9:42) it. Speaker 1 (9:42) It's funny that you were offended. Would you not be offended? The Speaker 2 (9:46) part that offended you, right, is that she pre-wrote your blurb, right? Is that what was offensive? I was offended that she Speaker 1 (9:50) pre-wrote it. But as I said, I was wrong to be that offended. I should have been like offended like one out of ten. I was somehow like offended nine out of ten. She Speaker 2 (9:57) might have thought, I'll take the load off your plate. Yeah, Speaker 1 (10:00) she Speaker 2 (10:00) thought she was Speaker 1 (10:00) doing you a favor. 100%. Like, Speaker 2 (10:02) I Speaker 1 (10:02) was the total jerk who was like, yeah, that's why it haunted me for so many years. I can't believe it took me 15 years to like write her a... Wow. Well, good for Speaker 2 (10:10) you. Speaker 1 (10:10) And now a public apology. I Speaker 2 (10:11) mean, Speaker 1 (10:11) I'm Speaker 2 (10:11) not Speaker 1 (10:11) the same. And now a public apology if she was listening. I think good for you. What if we've had her on the show? That'd be cool. I'm not going to tell you because that would be de-anonymous. So Speaker 2 (10:21) it's been 10 years between roughly, yeah, Grit and Situated? Speaker 1 (10:25) Exactly 10. Speaker 2 (10:26) Exactly 10. Speaker 1 (10:27) That's Speaker 2 (10:28) auspicious. Speaker 1 (10:28) It's a round number. Speaker 2 (10:29) I think what's most fun is how you come to write this book. And I'm referencing the graduate student that reached out to you. Could you tell us that story? Speaker 1 (10:37) I got a... Critique by a graduate student named Anindya. He was not my student. He was a student at NYU and he was pursuing sociology. I'm a psychologist. He was a budding sociologist. I was looking at the person. He was looking at the situation. As a budding sociologist, Anindya said, you're blaming effectively people for not being successful. because they don't have grit, because they're not trying hard, and you're ignoring the situations they're in. Whatever defensive reaction that I had, I did say, I'm curious. Tell me more. And then he told me more. And I don't know very much about sociology, but I think what he was saying is correct, which is that when you don't think about a person... in their situation as sort of two parts of a whole, then you lay blame at their feet undeservedly. And, you know, he was studying essentially people moving from lower socioeconomic status to higher socioeconomic status. I think he was absolutely correct to point that out. I have an email from him like yesterday asking, he's like, I got tenure, but I still might need a letter of recommendation if that is true ever. Is the answer yes? And I said, if that is true, ever, the answer is always yes. Yeah, that's lovely. So we ended up collaborating in, I don't know if it's collaboration, just staying in touch. Yeah. James Flynn, who's a psychologist, was a psychologist, said that every great psychologist eventually becomes a sociologist. Because eventually you figure out that you can't understand human behavior unless you think about the situation. Speaker 2 (12:02) Well, again, it's a very alluring and tempting endeavor to... parse out everything into tiny little compartments and we'll study these things in silos. And it's easier to manage. But what you really lose sight of is that nothing is unrelated to the other thing, right? It's Speaker 3 (12:19) an Speaker 2 (12:19) enormous soup. So the notion that you could even say one piece of it is what percentage of the person or nature versus all these binary boxes are for our convenience. They're not real. Speaker 1 (12:30) Right. And we have these little brains, honestly, right? And we're flesh and blood, so we have limits. But it's like so deep and so profound. You know, your camera has portrait mode and everyone looks great in portrait mode. They look better, right? Because you come in and it's like high definition. And then in portrait mode, the background is suppressed, gently blurred. And it turns out like that is how the human brain works. You always focus on the person. You know, you want to talk about Michael Phelps. You don't think like... Where did he live? How close was the pool? Who was on the team? Tell me more about the assistant coach. Who were his parents? Like, what did they do? I mean, you might eventually get there. Speaker 2 (13:04) Bill Gates, he goes to the only private school in America that has its own mainframe. In a time where people are paying exorbitant amounts to be on a computer for a half hour, he had unlimited access. Right. He's Bill Gates, but also he needs that thing. And Speaker 1 (13:15) by the way, a great headmaster. I think I know that school. Is it California or in Washington? It's like a... elite private school. Yeah, but Speaker 2 (13:21) very special, like the right ethos, I think. Speaker 1 (13:23) Yeah, right. And if I'm recalling the right conversation, the headmaster of the school that Bill Gates went to said that the job of adults is to watch with hawk-like concentration, but with childlike curiosity, what a young person is doing to see a little girl like twirling around being like, how about gymnastics? So he was in a situation. I think the profundity of that, that we go through life and we want to know who Jack Shepard is. When people Google you, they want to know about you. But the Googling is usually not like, tell me about everyone and everything around him. That thing that he did on Tuesday, I want to know why he did it because of what was going on. Usually they want to know why you did what you did on Tuesday because of you. It is because of you, but it's both. But nothing's really because of you. Nothing's only because of you. Nothing's only because of you. Also, we Speaker 2 (14:11) have this proclivity. I've been very aware of it lately, which is any... character defect we have, any shittiness we have, we have an explanation that will originate in our childhood. Speaker 1 (14:22) Yeah. Well, Speaker 2 (14:22) my father went bankrupt 12 times. Speaker 1 (14:24) Yeah, I was traumatized when I was five. Speaker 2 (14:26) Yes, and that's why I'm hypervigilant and I overreact to this. Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:30) Now, Speaker 2 (14:30) everything great about me, I figured out how to do. Speaker 1 (14:33) Right. You Speaker 2 (14:34) don't never hear someone blaming any of their positive stuff on their contacts or their parents or anything. Yeah. Speaker 1 (14:40) But Speaker 2 (14:40) all the bad shit has a really clear explanation. Right. That's all situational. The whole thing is all equal. Speaker 1 (14:46) What I would say is everything is both. And yeah, we can edit out the situational details for our victories, but we shouldn't. The profundity, it's like almost philosophical. It's like, oh, yeah. And so therefore, if I want to succeed, I need to be in places and with people who make me successful. OK, sure. But I do think it's deeper than that, because when you're. in a relationship with somebody and you understand them as everything they do, say, feel, it is a function of who that person is, their character, their mindset, but it's also a function of like literally every trivial detail of their situation. It's like a figure ground shift. And if you can keep it, because again, I think our brain goes into portrait mode and it's like, okay, wait. Back to Dax and his story. You know, if you can keep the backstory somehow in focus, then it is a more human and complete way to understand people. You know, in some ways, like these two books, right, 10 years apart, they are a set. I mean, one is about the inside game of how to not necessarily be only oneself, because I... as you know, don't believe in oneself. But I do believe that there are some selves we like more than others. And there is an inside game of like how to think. And the Buddhists actually have a lot to say about like how to think about the world, how to think about your goals. And there is an outside game. And this second book is about that outside game. It's like, okay, now I'm going to look around me. I'm not going to look inner. I'm going to look outer. I'm going to audit. Speaker 2 (16:08) Situational agency, which is this great concept you present. Speaker 1 (16:11) It can't be a trilogy because that's inside and outside. There's like nothing. Well, that's kind of it. I'm going to come up with another. Yeah, Speaker 2 (16:16) try. As much as I have enjoyed your previous work, I enjoy them for the way you construct them. I enjoy them for the antidotes that are included. But you may or may not remember, my criticism of you has constantly been. In the condom and narrative self versus experiential self, I think you're way too heavy handed with the narrative self. And I don't think you should be giving people tools necessarily to try to achieve all this greatness. Why? Because I don't think there's anything there when you reach it. Speaker 1 (16:46) I think it's a complete, it's Speaker 2 (16:47) a Speaker 1 (16:47) fool's errand. Speaker 2 (16:48) It's a fool's errand. Speaker 1 (16:49) Like I can get you there faster, but you'll get to nowhere. Guess Speaker 2 (16:52) what? Yeah. As soon as you become the CEO, guess what? You're going to be fucking miserable. Let me just break it down for you. I've met them all. They're miserable. I know all the billionaires. But Speaker 1 (16:59) I have a theory of happiness and I don't think you're Speaker 2 (17:01) going Speaker 1 (17:01) to disagree, but maybe you will actually, right? So here's the thing about happiness. I want to say that you're right, that when you arrive at the destination of CEO or you arrive at the destination of like tenured professor or you arrive at the destination of like famous celebrity or author. Name it. Whatever, right? Like it's hard to say it loud enough. This is not happiness. You don't get there and feel happy. But here's why I think that is. As a psychologist, we have emotions. The emotions are positive when we are. approaching our goal, not when we've arrived and not when we arrived five minutes ago or five years ago, right? We're almost there. We're getting there. That's happiness. So then you could say, well, what's the prescriptive recommendation then? So if upon arrival, you're disappointed, I don't know any other way to live. Look, why are you doing this? Speaker 2 (17:49) Although I agree with you that that sweet spot is like where it's, oh my God, I'm going to touch it. Speaker 1 (17:54) Yeah, exactly. If you Speaker 2 (17:55) could live there, that would be delightful. I don't think one can live there. No. I think the other way to happiness is to actually enjoy the process. Speaker 1 (18:04) Correct. And Speaker 2 (18:04) that is my life mission. Speaker 1 (18:06) That is what I want to say. But you know what? The process includes having a goal. So that's where I think we agree. No, I don't Speaker 2 (18:13) agree. You Speaker 1 (18:13) don't think the process has to have a goal? How else do you do Speaker 2 (18:15) it if you don't have a goal? I happen to live with an example. Now, I'm not that way at all. I'm goal-oriented. You Speaker 1 (18:19) don't have any—okay, okay. Speaker 2 (18:20) I'm very goal-oriented. We're going to Speaker 1 (18:21) give, like, a counterexample to you. The Speaker 2 (18:23) one anomaly in that goal-oriented life is this show. We had no fucking goal other than we wanted to chat with people because we enjoy chatting. That's process. I enjoy the activity. We didn't think it would make any money. We didn't think it would be huge. We enjoyed talking to people. So we started talking. Speaker 3 (18:42) Do you Speaker 1 (18:43) have Speaker 3 (18:43) any goals? Yes. It's changed so much. It started like that. But with success came a lot of other stuff, came a lot of other goals. Speaker 2 (18:54) Distractions, I would say. I think we've had to keep finding our way back. Speaker 1 (18:58) But you know what I think? I think this is a goal. I just took some. Speaker 2 (19:01) Yeah. Did it feel best right before it hit your lips? Sure, yeah. The dopamine was released. Yeah, now I've already Speaker 1 (19:08) had this. Okay, you know what a goal is? A goal is a desired state of the world. If you want to tell me that for this podcast, it could be anything and you'd still love it, then I would concede some real estate here. But there are episodes that you like more than others and you have goals. You have a desired state of armchair expert. And therefore, to me, That's a goal. That's ambition. It's not like a certain number of listeners. It's not necessarily an external validation. Speaker 2 (19:37) Already we're structuring as binary and that's already where we're fucked up. So it's not like you do have a goal or you don't have a goal. It's this spectrum of how goal driven you are and how process driven you are. And you're trying to slide this thing to where you have peace, right? And for me, peace is when I'm far further on the spectrum that's about process. You cannot be devoid of gold. That's not what I'm suggesting. Speaker 1 (19:57) That's the only thing I wanted to say. Because the process is the, you know, the journey is the destination. But without a destination, there's no journey. That's the only thing, right? Maybe it's trivial to say that. Speaker 2 (20:05) Again, I think we should reject that it's one or the other. I think it's just like this long spectrum. Even my criticism of your stuff sometimes has been like, it's too heavily on the side of the spectrum of like, get the 4.0, get into the school. Right, like make it out of West Point. Because guess what? You're writing them out. All the examples you have in your book, they're so fun. They're great. They're the people who reach their goals. And they've left out the 99 % of competitors that did all that stuff and they didn't get to those goals. So is that trash? Speaker 1 (20:29) Okay, let me process this because I think a glib response is like not a great response. Let me say back what you're saying and make sure I understand it. You're like, love the work and slash but. Speaker 2 (20:41) This isn't new. I said this to you last time. I have a terrible memory. That's okay. It reminded Speaker 1 (20:45) me. So what you're saying is in your own experience too, right? As somebody who has achieved some things and maybe this surprise, whatever. You're not saying that, you know, human beings ought not have goals, but you're saying that when you spend all of your energy and when you put all of your chips on the goal mark, and then you're not putting any of your attention, your energy, hang your hopes on. The process, right? How'd it feel? Like, did you have fun today? How was that for you? That's a mistake. That's what you're saying, right? And when you, like, anoint the Michael Phelpses and you say, like, 28, you know, Olympic medals. Yeah, those are so inspiring. Yeah, but you're like, maybe you missed the most important part of the story, which is the process. If Speaker 2 (21:23) you are suffering to get to the goal, and then guess what the goal... upon achievement doesn't feel like it should, I say that's a bad fucking strategy in life. Speaker 1 (21:32) You know, I'm trying to curse less. This is not helping because you're in my situation right now. Wow, I'm going to drop the F-bomb. Speaker 2 (21:40) Yeah, yeah, you're invited to. Probably you're Speaker 1 (21:41) okay to drop the F-bomb with. I don't know, I'm trying to be more like PG. Why? For Speaker 2 (21:46) what goal? I Speaker 1 (21:48) don't want to offend. Speaker 2 (21:49) Nobody that listens to this show is offended by swear words. They could have never gotten this far. Speaker 1 (21:53) Yeah, that's true. They're not listening. All right. I don't know Michael Phelps, by the way. I wrote about Michael Phelps because I interviewed his coach and I studied his mom because I wanted to study his situation, right? I knew Michael Phelps was gritty. There's no better poster boy for grit than somebody who swims 365 days a year for 20 years. But I wanted to write about a situation. I want to use Michael Phelps and what little I know. about his journey, which has not been on a linear trajectory necessarily. Like, yes, all the medals, but as you know. Speaker 2 (22:23) Massive depression, by the way. Depression. Following it all. Speaker 1 (22:25) Substance use, right? Mental health issues. Speaker 2 (22:27) There are public Speaker 1 (22:27) things, right? As I told you, I didn't interview him, so I only have public knowledge. He retired, as you probably know, and then he unretired. And he unretired before his last Olympics. And this I know from just talking to Bob Bowman, right? So again, studying the situations of successful people. So Bob is his second father, right? So Bob gets this text message or whatever. Michael wants to go out to dinner. He's like, okay, something's coming. Because Michael had retired, right? So Bob was coaching swimming. But he wasn't coaching Michael Phelps. In that conversation where Michael told him that he wanted to un-retire, Bob's account is that he had come to a reckoning of why he wanted to swim. And he had come to a different understanding of the goals. By the way, he still wanted to win gold. Speaker 2 (23:10) If he's going to do it, he wants to be the fastest in the water. I Speaker 1 (23:12) guess to your point, it was a shift in the motivation. And I do think, I can't put words in his mouth. I can't say like he had a shift to the process. versus the goal itself, that would be silly because I'm not Michael Phelps and I can't guess. But I know what you mean. As somebody who's had some success in her own field too, I know what you mean about, you know, you get to Xanadu and there's no paradise. And the reason I think... goals are important and you're right to like single out on Michael Phelps, then it does sort of at least imply that the reason why this person is noteworthy is because they got the goal and not because of Speaker 2 (23:48) the Speaker 1 (23:48) process. Speaker 2 (23:48) We're not horny for process. Speaker 1 (23:49) We are not horny for process. I don't say horny, by the way. That's Speaker 2 (23:52) on Speaker 1 (23:52) my list of approved words. So there's this professor named Dasha Nguang at Northwestern and he got really obsessed with fourth place finishers at the Olympics. And he had this hypothesis that when you're in fourth place, it gives you a lot of like motivational kick. And like if you place fourth, you get nothing. If you place third, you're on the podium. The third place, I was like, oh my God, I'm on the podium. Speaker 2 (24:13) Almost didn't get here. Speaker 1 (24:14) The silver medalists are like, God, I was like so close to gold. But his question was not about the third place. He was like, what happens when you place fourth? And so he was really obsessed with it. And basically, I'll tell you his finding, but that's not the point. The finding is that the fourth place finishers actually do better than the third place finishers as like future unfolds. But the thing that I want to say is he couldn't find the footage. Who was fourth? I mean, he had to do a lot of work. So if you're not going to study Michael Phelps as a case study of someone who had a lot of grit but also had a great situation, and say you want to study the fourth place finisher in the 400 IM in the 2024 Olympics, you can hunt him down. You can, like, research them. I think you're right that if you only focus on the goal, you're chasing the morning dew because when you get there, it'll be gone. But also, I think... Human beings will always chase goals. Four-year-olds will always make sandcastles. When I said, like, I think this is a goal, I have a desired future state that is to, like, raise this to my lips. That's a goal. Maybe it's so deep in my DNA that I can't get it out. It's that I think people are ambitious, even though you know that when you get to a certain rung in the ladder, it's not like anything changes. But we're always on a ladder. It's just the nature of human nature to be on a ladder. I don't Speaker 3 (25:26) think enjoying the process can happen unless you've achieved the goal. You have to have done that first. This is like chronological, right? Like first you get the goal, then you realize, oh, it didn't really do the thing. Then you go back and then you're like, okay, exactly the Michael Phelps thing you're saying is he did it, he got it. And then after he's like, oh, I don't, you can't shortcut Speaker 1 (25:50) this. But you're sort of like, he had to go through that almost rite of passage. Yes. Okay, Speaker 2 (25:54) I started it and I didn't finish it. So I admitted that I am very goal oriented. I'm like you. And if I wasn't forced to live with someone who happens to be an example, I don't think I would believe it existed. I am a lucky product of this unique situation where I was in, which is. She never tried to get famous. She never tried to make a lot of money. She started singing and she has an obsession that she knows she thinks she can make this noise and she worked at it endlessly and then she got it and she's a mimic. And then the place she could go do that was in the singing musical theater thing. And she loved being around all the people and she's just really good at it. She really just ended up in all these places without ever setting out to be in them. And it was through loving the process of the things she does. And so I've witnessed it and I know it exists. And I think if I didn't live with her, I would reject that it exists. You'd be like, Speaker 1 (26:47) I don't believe you. I Speaker 2 (26:48) don't buy it. Speaker 1 (26:48) That's Speaker 2 (26:48) a Speaker 1 (26:48) fairy. I'm telling you, I wouldn't believe it. Also, there's nothing worse than having no goals. I think you would agree. Speaker 2 (26:54) Yes. Like a state of apathy. A Speaker 1 (26:56) state of apathy. It's just like existential angst. Like ennui. I don't know where I'm going. Having a port of destination is a hell of a lot better than being like, I have no idea. A drift is a pejorative. A drift. Yeah, a drift. Like, yeah. We agree. A Speaker 2 (27:09) drift Speaker 1 (27:09) is negative, right? Speaker 2 (27:10) No one says it positively. Okay, Speaker 1 (27:11) we would agree to that. Whatever level of commitment or however tightly you want to hang on to like this goal, this particular goal, or even if you say, I'm really all about process, right? I love how singing makes me feel. So I'm going to do it. And I'm not even quote unquote going to see what happens. I'm literally just going to like do it. Speaker 2 (27:29) Yeah, I'm going to keep doing it. Speaker 1 (27:30) I still contend that the situation you're in. is important because I don't know that everybody who is process-oriented is equally happy, right? So regardless of where you fall on this, as you say, continuum, right, of how goal-directed am I versus how process-directed I am, I think to me the reason why I nearly killed myself to write another book and the reason I say to you, like, I don't think there's another is this is the missing piece. And you know what, Dax? I wouldn't have written this book if somebody else had written it. I was... hoping somebody else had for a general audience because... You Speaker 2 (28:05) don't like the process of writing a book. It was Speaker 1 (28:06) not the funnest thing to do. It was harrowing and I don't think I'm Speaker 2 (28:10) going Speaker 1 (28:10) to live as long because of the years I shaved off my life. But you know the reason why I don't think there's Speaker 2 (28:15) a Speaker 1 (28:15) book about this is that the inside game, like, oh, you know, your mindset, I think it's more