EP-455 | FlyDubai Horror, Radicalised Pilots & Future of Warfare | Lt Gen Dhillon & Air Marshal Kapoor

ANI Podcast with Smita Prakash

Lt Gen K.J.S. Dhillon and Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor analyze the evolving nature of modern warfare through recent conflicts in West Asia, emphasizing how drone technology, asymmetric strategies, and radicalization are blurring traditional military boundaries. They examine Iran's

Key takeaways

• Lt Gen Dhillon and Air Marshal Kapoor co-authored 'Nobody's War, Everybody's War' to dissect how localized conflicts now trigger global economic and security ripple effects.
• The FlyDubai incident illustrates the radicalization of educated professionals and the dangerous blurring of lines between terrorism, crime, and conventional warfare.

Main topics

• Evolution of modern warfare and radicalization
• Drone technology limitations in high-altitude terrain

Notable quotes

"In today's world, when technology and time is of premium, a good decision in quick time is better than the best decision after two hours."

Conclusion

The episode delivers a strategic blueprint for India's national security,

Transcript preview

Speaker 3 (0:00) Namaste, Jai Hind. You're watching or listening to another edition of the N.I. Podcast with Smita Prakash. Today we talk about the changing nature of warfare and how can India be prepared for the new wars, where wars are not fought on battlefields, they are fought on skies and at sea through drones and missiles, satellites and cyber attacks, disinformation and economic pressure. From Ukraine to West Asia, cheap drones can threaten weapon systems worth millions. Non-state actors can challenge conventional militaries. Civilian infrastructure has become a target. And conflict thousands of kilometers away can disrupt oil supplies, shipping routes, markets and national security here in India. What should India be learning from all this? My two guests today have been talking and thinking of warfare for decades from different perspectives. Left-wing General KJS Tiny Dhillon is a former Director of Defence Intelligence Agency and Deputy Chief of Integrated Defence Staff. He has appeared on the ANI podcasts Episode 11, Episode 81 and Episode 293. General Dhillon has commanded the strategically important 15th Corps in Kashmir and has extensive experience in counter-terrorism. Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor has appeared on the ANI podcast episode 297 and episode 405, where he has spoken about his career and the wars. Air Marshal Kapoor has served as Commandant of the National Defence Academy and has extensive experience in air operations, training and strategic affairs. Together they have now written, Is India Ready for the Next Crisis? The USA-Israel-Iran Conflict? Nobody's War, Everybody's War. But before I begin this conversation, a few notes. I am not a defence reporter and this is not a defence podcast. I am asking questions which many of you might already know the answers to, at times questions that might seem uninformed to many of you. But understand that this is a conversation I ask questions which are oftentimes not the ones domain specialists would ask. And sometimes I know the answers, yet… I may ask the questions because I know some of my viewers may not have that information. That doesn't mean that I'm ignorant or I haven't done any research. It just is what journalism is all about. Also, most of the episodes run over an hour and I steer the conversation. Those are not interruptions. That is called moderating the discussion. So we stay on topic. And as I have many topics that I want my guests to speak on during the course of the conversation. And my views on these topics are also part of the podcast. So you just have to listen to them. So now let's begin the conversation. This episode is powered by Delta Exchange, India's leading crypto exchange. Speaker 3 (2:57) Thank you, M. Arshal Kapoor. Thank you, General Dhillon. Both of you have appeared on the podcast before, so I'm very grateful that you're here. And I want to begin with you, M. Arshal Kapoor, with a tweet that you had done, a post. And I'll read that out to you. This is regarding the Fly Dubai. aircraft and which you said no one's talking about the radicalization of professionals, especially the educated lot, the latest being the Omani pilot. The pilots, doctors, engineers and scientists are now convinced about the cause. The line arguably is if it ever existed. What I want to ask you is that this line between radicalism, terrorism and war. These are three lines which have got blurred with this incident. Because, you know, as per the charter, hijacking is a crime against humanity. It's not an act of terror. But this seems to be an act of terror. At least that's what Israel is saying, that this was an act of terror. At the same time, there is a war going on in West Asia. Does it become an act of crime? Is it an act of terror? Is it an act of war? Or are we living in times, I'll come to you also, General Tanner, on this. Are we living in times where all these lines have got blurred? Speaker 2 (4:26) Actually, you are absolutely correct in identifying that this incident specifically, which led me to write this tweet, is that you will find more and more people are moving towards an ideology. Earlier, you could find that people who were less educated, who were not so in the mainstream, were easy to be molded away with a particular thought process and mindset. But now, It's the 9-11 accident in the US that put a lot of things in place. And I'm sure this incident which happened in Fly Dubai on 30th of September will bring in a large number of changes again, especially for the crew. Now I can visualize what ICAO will sit in. We'll start to check the pilots' profiles now. Speaker 3 (5:21) They will Speaker 2 (5:22) start to check the social media handling. They will start to now check their bank accounts and balances. They will start now to see the profiling and then designate as per, this would be of course secret, but they would now start profiling you and start putting you on those kind of flights which are not of that nature. This trend, aviation, I was on a show last evening and I was asked why this axe was used. And the axe, for the benefit of your viewers also, is put in the cockpit basically for the pilots. It's a fire axe, we call it. It is put to cut open the bulkhead. It can cut the wires in case of any crash landing. It can cut the door handles. It's so sharp. And on the other end is the sharp object which, when hit on the fire extinguisher, helps the pilot at that stage. Even if he is injured, he can operate a fire extinguisher. But I said yesterday that the doctor has a surgical knife. He performs surgery with that knife. The same knife can be used to kill somebody. Now, that axe is put for some particular person. If it is used to kill another pilot, that takes a new shape totally. It's a totally new shape. And everything which happened in this incident of 30th of September is a miracle. It's a miracle. And so many things, you know, going the way for those people who were on board. Otherwise, I have again said, it is an Indian pilot getting airborne from a UAE territory with Israeli passengers on board. And if hypothetically this aircraft had crashed, the analysis would have come that Indian pilot. took down the aeroplane into the Israeli territory, you know, getting airborne from UAE. And the Israeli Prime Minister had just visited UAE. Speaker 3 (7:19) He Speaker 2 (7:20) met the Saudi Minister in Abu Dhabi. So probably some larger forces do not want this association to go on. Maybe one of the following. Other, like you rightly pointed out, this war. which General Dillon, you know, we had long meeting before we wrote this book, how to name. So finally it became nobody's war to everybody's war. Now if you see every person in this globe is either directly or indirectly connected with this war. Speaker 1 (7:48) And Speaker 2 (7:48) everybody's paying the Speaker 3 (7:49) bill now. Sir, I'll come to the book. Sorry to interrupt. I'll come to the book. But let me first come back to the incident on this. Because there's this view, plumber has run it. How can it be? You know, like you said, that the way everybody is looking at this incident is also through that ideological prism. If you are looking at it from a prism where you don't want to believe what the Israelis are putting out, then everybody is looking at it like, what is this glass of water? There is so much turbulence that the plane is going down. So how come things haven't fallen down? Now AI generated videos are also coming out. The sequence was that Captain Smith opened the door manually. After that, the plumber entered the room. He took control and managed to neutralize the pilot, the Omani pilot who attacked Captain Smith. And then he maneuvered the aircraft to some extent. But the landing of that aircraft was done by the second crew. That is the sequence which happened. But the narrative has already gone that how can a plumber run it? Speaker 2 (8:59) Absolutely. The twist given immediately after the accident was it was all pre-planned. So, like for them, October 7th, 2023 was pre-planned. This accident was pre-planned. So, they gave a spin to, like after Opsindor, they gave a spin that they... They shot down seven of our aircrafts. S-400 was shot. So many airfields were taken out. So this narrative is immediately put across and then it is reinforced. Can Speaker 3 (9:31) a person who is not trained Speaker 2 (9:34) can actually pull back Speaker 3 (9:36) the fever? Speaker 2 (9:37) When Benjamin Netanyahu asked him the same question, your viewers can watch the interaction. That is Speaker 3 (9:43) a prime minister listening to... So he said that Speaker 2 (9:47) he has been watching the... crash videos of Discovery Channel for last 25 years. He is interested. And in lot of those air accidents which have been covered on Discovery Channel, there have been few in which the passengers have gone and they said that they have seen people pulling out the aircraft. So he said that immediately when the Omani pilot was taken out of the cockpit, the cockpit door was open. He sat on the seat and brought the aircraft. to somewhat straight and level attitude. And then there were two pilots who were traveling on board as passengers. So that's why I said in the beginning, everything in this incident is luck. The luck is because in Boeing 737, the door opening from the cockpit manually is with the co-pilot side. The pilot sits on the left side. So the Omani pilot would have been sitting on the right side. So if he has attacked, the lever is on his side. So Captain Smith would have juggled to open that lever for others to come into. So this part, you know, how he would have managed with that injury and in this process to take the pilot out. And he, the plumber, has brought the aircraft up. It's possible. It's possible because he says the last 20 to 25 years, I have been watching the aircraft accident programs. on the television. So he is aware of all these things, though he may not have any idea of aviation. But fortunately, there were other pilots also on board on that aeroplane, which took over and brought the aircraft down. Speaker 3 (11:24) General, you've seen unusual acts of bravery by civilians. where you know in 15th Kaur when you were interacting with Kashmiris we have spoken about this in previous episodes and I've just mentioned the numbers of the episodes where viewers can go into those episodes and see it in fact you very kindly came when I was just beginning my podcast when I was you know hunting for people who would come on my podcast and saying you were very kind and you came on the podcast and explained so much about you know, stuff that you have seen, unusual acts of bravery by civilians. This incident which has happened, there are many, of course, like I said, who have this prism that whatever is put out by Israel, we are not going to believe. It's also during war that Israel is involved in past couple of years. They do put out propaganda material. So, we will not believe. These are... These are legitimate journalists, publications who are refusing to believe it. But you have been, you have seen it during the course of your career and even after that, these unusual acts of bravery. Do you see this with skepticism when something comes out like this? Or do you think that what you saw or what you've heard, the sequence makes for believable sequence, believable actions which happened? Speaker 1 (12:53) Thank you, ma'am. And first of all, a good day to all the viewers. Yes, ma'am. And just taking a little bit, speaking a little bit on your first question, the lines between the conventional war, sub-conventional war, unconventional war, low-intensity conflict, terrorism, crime, are actually getting blurred. They're getting blurred to the extent that, like in our Vedas, it's written, Sam, Dam, Dand Bhed. Everything is fair in love and war. Similarly, it has been now taken to a new level. Speaker 3 (13:25) Yeah, this is there for viewers and listeners. It's there right from the beginning of the book. And in fact, in almost all the chapters, you mentioned this. So those of you who want to know more about that, please do read this book. Both the authors have explicitly stated about how these lines have got blurred. Speaker 1 (13:42) Go ahead. Some of these lines have got blurred. And this act. By an individual with a particular mindset, which is a radicalized mindset, having terrorist tendencies and, you know, not a very stable person, like Air Marshal Kapoor says, he's a professional, but he's radicalized. These are part of the game today. They are done to achieve that thing in the social media and the media and in the larger public base. That the normal common person, our aircraft pilot who is educated, who is professional, even he believes in our way of thinking. Like 9-11 happened with that thinking and that background. And now coming to your question proper. Are these individual acts of bravery, are, you know, they are exceptions or they are a rule? Individual acts of bravery happen at the point of, you know, just an instance. At that instance, a human can get into the act of fear. And at that very instant, the same human can get into the act of bravery. Because the way he looks at the situation, and like in this particular situation, hijack situation. Now this situation, that instance, that second, it was, I am going to be no more if I don't act. He did not have the luxury of getting afraid. Speaker 1 (15:02) Because the biggest fear of death was already there. So when there is no bigger fear than death, then he had only one choice of being brave. And that's exactly what happened with not only the person who entered the cockpit, not only the pilot, Captain Smith, but each and every passenger on that aircraft. Speaker 3 (15:21) See Speaker 1 (15:22) the Speaker 3 (15:22) sequence. What happened was that there was an altercation which was happening in that. At that moment, there was a little child who wanted to go to the bathroom. Now, any plane which is flying in that area, before Israel, one hour before that, they don't allow you to go to the bathroom. There's a little child who goes there. She hears the noise in the cockpit and she realizes something is wrong. She tells her mother that... Something has happened. The mother believes the child and tells Aage. The door opens. It's a sequence. And it's also a population, Israelis, who have lived in conflict zones, who don't... Otherwise, in our mindset, if we hear a sound at Speaker 1 (16:06) night, Speaker 3 (16:06) we think it's a cat. Speaker 1 (16:08) It's Speaker 3 (16:08) someone Speaker 1 (16:09) else. Someone from the family. Speaker 3 (16:10) Someone old who's walking. We don't want to think of the threat that it could be an... and somebody who has come in. It's people who live in conflict zones. So that sequence which you were talking about, this unusual act of bravery, the instinct is there in the Israelis. So explain to me that am I right in interpreting? Speaker 1 (16:31) Absolutely, ma'am. I have been to Israel two, three times. In Israel, it's very common to see in the evening in a restaurant, a girl walking in with the AK-47 on her shoulder and ordering a pizza. Now, that is the way that society is. They are prepared for war or they're prepared for enemy action or a bombardment or a missile hitting you every moment. Practically every Israeli citizen is trained, trained for military type of things. And it is in their mindset that we have enemies all around. Slowly and slowly, the people around, the countries around are changing. But when it started off in 1948. Speaker 3 (17:08) Yeah. Speaker 1 (17:09) Like when we were studying international relations in school and college in India, we were told that the hostile nations all around Israel. So they have grown up. They were born in that society. They were born in that feeling of fear of being attacked every moment. And they're prepared to react. There's a phrase in the army, for a large. For a large is, you don't have to think. If you're firing a rifle, it'll stop suddenly. For a large means... Speaker 1 (17:41) That is intuitive. For an Israeli, this is intuitive. The moment they see a danger, they sense a danger, the body reaction. Intuitively aggressive and calm. Speaker 3 (17:55) So, everybody out there, it wasn't just that it's done. It wasn't, I mean, I understand what you're saying about luck, but it's beyond luck. It is a kind of a training that they have that believing that child that there's danger, going immediately towards the cockpit, that one man saying, I've taken charge and that the other two immediately coming and landing the plane. And the rest, believing that and not going into a state of panic. Speaker 2 (18:25) Absolutely. The training, like General Dhillon just said. So you're involved in training with... Yes, I've been involved in training. I was the commandant of National Defense Academy and the Air Force Academy. So training forms an essential part. Like he was saying, you don't have to think. Your body functions that way to get you what you have to get. So when any panic or any other situation arise, the mind automatically directs you and the action starts to flow. In my appreciation, these seven minutes when I was reading about this incident, Captain Smith put, there's a code called 7700. It's a transponder code, which the pilot selects. The first code 7700 is an indicative of general emergency. You don't have to announce on RT. but the the transponder transmits to all the stations but when you put 7500 it's a hijack So Captain Smith first put 7700. That is the period when he was being attacked in my appreciation. When he put 7500, he is convinced that the aircraft is being hijacked and being taken for a cause. Is Speaker 3 (19:40) this one button? I'm not sure. Speaker 2 (19:43) I have not flown blowings. I'm not sure of how the selection is. But in many aircrafts, you have to punch. In many aircrafts, there are four digits. You have to just select. It is a toggle switch. You have to just move and the digits move. So there are four separate windows. Just like in a suitcase? Yes, just like a suitcase lock. It should be a single button. No, in some, each aircraft has different. Some you have to manually feed like a mobile. And in some, the other codes are blanked, which are not in use, some digits. So that it is easier for you. So he... again put it back to 770. So in my appreciation that was the stage when the co-pilot must have been taken out of the cockpit and the period is just seven minutes. So from 7700 to 7500 back to 7700 as per what I read is just about seven minutes. So it means he must have been overpowered in this time. The aircraft must have been brought to the situation and that's how they decided to divert to Saudi Arabia. But Speaker 3 (20:44) they also had other aircrafts where engineers moved towards... The fighters got activated from Speaker 2 (20:50) Israel. So that got activated when 7500 came up. Speaker 3 (20:55) Because that Speaker 2 (20:55) could also mean that they would be shot down. Absolutely. So they Speaker 3 (20:59) did Speaker 2 (20:59) not want this aeroplane to come into the Israeli territory as a weapon. So the fighters got airborne. Speaker 3 (21:05) So to go back to the danger mode from the hijack mode. He Speaker 2 (21:11) has to just change now one digit, the second digit from 5 to 7, that's all. He has to change all the four digits. Is it physically Speaker 3 (21:22) possible for a grievously injured pilot to move like that and manually open? I'm only asking you, sir, because those who don't believe, they don't do it. Maybe the Israeli Speaker 1 (21:37) pilots who are on board, Maybe they came in and when the situation stabilized, probably they put the situation back to 7700. Yeah. So the inquiry will bring out all these Speaker 3 (21:46) things. Speaker 1 (21:46) Because Speaker 3 (21:47) then it is not a Speaker 1 (21:48) hijack threat anymore. It is Speaker 2 (21:50) not a weapon. Speaker 1 (21:51) Yes. You Speaker 2 (21:52) know, it's not a weapon. So they probably wanted to communicate that it is no more a threat, it is just an emergency. And also Speaker 3 (21:58) they must have gone on radio to say that they have Speaker 1 (22:00) commanded Speaker 3 (22:01) the... Speaker 1 (22:01) In this whole incident, what we are talking about, the basic instincts, the human nature. you know, being prepared. Look at that four-year-old child. Yeah. That child is also psychologically tuned to sense danger. Because Israel is going through a war where missiles are hitting them every day. They're going into the bunkers and all those things. So this child has also been tuned to that type of danger sensing. And that is when the child sensed the danger, immediately came back and told the mother. Speaker 3 (22:33) Yeah. Speaker 1 (22:33) And five days from now, it will be three years. Speaker 3 (22:37) Sir, I remember the sirens of Speaker 1 (22:40) 71. Speaker 3 (22:40) I was that same age. Speaker 1 (22:42) You Speaker 3 (22:43) know, I know, standing in a corner when there's a siren, Speaker 1 (22:47) I Speaker 3 (22:48) know turning off the lights, blackout, I know that. But it's the last generation of Indians across the country knowing that siren. Now, after my generation, the next generations, only those who lived in conflict zones Speaker 1 (23:05) will know it. Ma'am, before Operation Sindoor, on 6th of May, we had a podcast here. And after I went down, that day that advisory had come for blackout. Sitting, standing in the lawns Speaker 3 (23:18) of Speaker 1 (23:18) her office, your reporter asked me, sir, what do you understand by blackout? So I explained all these things and that reel went viral. Because