EP-451 l Mahatma Gandhi, India’s History, Leftist Historians, Savarkar & Tipu Sultan | Vikram Sampath

ANI Podcast with Smita Prakash

In this episode, historian Dr. Vikram Sampath discusses the necessity of decentralizing Indian historical narratives to move beyond a Delhi-centr

Key takeaways

• Dr. Vikram Sampath argues that current history textbooks are too Delhi-centric, focusing on dynasties like the Lodhis and Khiljis while neglecting the Cholas, Pandyas, and Ahoms.
• The guest highlights that Indian history is often taught as a 'litany of defeats,' failing to convey the resilience and strength of character shown by ancestors during invasions.
• The Foundation for Indian Historical and Cultural Research (FIHCR) was established to provide alternative, evidence-based scholarship using primary sources like Sanskrit and Pali.
• A significant barrier to understanding India's past is the language gap, as much of the historical record is in Sanskrit, Persian, or Arabic, which modern Indians cannot read.
• Dr. Sampath has worked to digitize approximately 15,000 gramophone records, preserving early Indian classical music, folk, and cinema audio.

Main topics

• NCERT textbook reform
• Delhi-centric vs. Regional history
• Preservation of Indian musical archives

Notable quotes

Bharat literally needs to snatch her history back from Delhi.

Conclusion

The episode serves as a call to action for more inclusive, primary-sou

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:00) Namaste, Jai Hind. You're watching or listening to another edition of the ANI podcast with Smita Prakash. In the studio today with me is one of India's most influential writers, biographers and historians, Vikram Sampath. Vikram has appeared on this podcast and several other podcasts where he has spoken extensively on his books. The deeply researched works on figures ranging from Veer Savarkar to Gauhar Jahan. and Tipu Sultan. So in this episode, I'm going to try and steer the conversation beyond the obvious. And that is because Vikram consistently challenges conventional narratives and enjoys discussing how Indian history is written, taught, and absorbed. This episode is powered by easemytrip.com. Thank you, Vikram, for coming. Considering that like you said before we began the shoot that this time there's no book, there's no agenda. It's just free-flowing conversation we're going to have. Speaker 2 (0:54) And Speaker 1 (0:55) hopefully I'll surprise you with my questions because otherwise like you... When I was thinking of what can I talk to Vikram which Vikram hasn't spoken about, you know. Like I said like, should we start again on Mughals, Deepu? No. Shall we talk about Savarkar all over again? Shall we talk about... I was like, what should we talk about? What is it that students and people who are conflicted about these days? Then I was looking at the newspaper and I was like that Harappa dancer figure came up. And then everybody thinking that, what was in this? For generations we have seen this. Then why does she have to be covered? Then I thought about it that... you know, I remember going to many of the temples, I don't know whether it was Belur Halaribeed or whether it was other temples and all that and earlier the temples were as is, you know, those murtis were as they are. Slowly one started seeing one Vaishthi coming up and one blouse being put on the idols and you know, one you know, one dhoti tied and some of the obvious changes started happening and I was wondering whether this is a process where we are doing this and it's impacting on everybody. This morality is it or is it you don't want to think of that aspect of it but then I said okay let me ask now that Vikram is coming to the studio let me ask him that this redesigning of NCERT textbooks that happen Is it a broader education system revamp that we have to look at? And if yes, if you were to pick, say, two or three or four major aspects of our textbooks that one had to change, what would Vikram Sampath pick? I'm sure it's not the Harappa dance. But anything else that you could just, on the top of your hat, think that this needs revamping. Speaker 2 (3:02) We need to re-look at Speaker 1 (3:03) these. Speaker 2 (3:04) Thanks, Mitha. Thanks. Lovely to be here again. And I think this time it's more impromptu than ever. And I think this is the best way to do it. In fact, that's something that's been bothering me for a long time as to the kind of textbooks that we have in the recent past. And I've been quite vocal about it, much to the anger of many of the pro-establishment historians and others. I think at multiple levels, the textbooks... Which is probably the first and sometimes the last brush of an Indian student with history. Because a lot of them, I think after class 10, abandon this subject because of the boring manner in which it is taught, right? And so in that span, whatever little they learn about India's past, there are numerous problems as I see it. One is, of course, what I... keep harping and I do that much to the disappointment of people in Delhi perhaps that our history is very very Delhi centric you know small dynasties which ruled for probably a few kilometers in and around Delhi the Lodhis and Khiljis and Tughlaqs and others whose contribution to this civilization was probably next to Zilch barring a few monuments here and there we memorize, we learn up the dynastic successions of all of these, whereas I think vast swathes of this country, especially the south of India where we come from, the northeast of India, all these never feature in what we call the history of Bharat. I mean, Bharat literally needs to snatch her history back from Delhi. That, you know, I was seeing the older version of the NCRT textbook where the Cholas, the Pandyas, Cheras, they're all dismissed in a map saying this is where, you know, these people ruled. And Speaker 1 (4:54) like in the earlier episode, which we had discussed, and in case people who haven't seen the earlier episodes, I'm just going to put it on the screen, what were the earlier episodes. We discussed this. And we said that they were multiple choice questions, means a two mark question, you know, on a little bit about if you wanted to talk about one king's mansabdari system another king's maybe military might you remember quite a bit of Speaker 2 (5:19) your history textbook would Speaker 1 (5:21) be a two mark you know and like maybe Samudra Gupta one two mark question and that is optional you know whereas if you wanted to read the great details of you know Akbar Aurangzeb and you know Humayun and Shah Jahan and all will be nice big five markers Speaker 2 (5:39) or eight markers that you had and this whole thing right of national history and regional history I mean in what way are the Cholas regional And this is ironically, Smita, being spoken by the same set of Marxist historians who say there was never a nation called India, right? I mean, they are the ones who keep harping that till the British came and civilized us, so to say, and unified this very ahistorical conglomerate of people, we were all warring factions and so on. If that is really the case, there's nothing called an epicenter or... a mainstream national history and Cholas and Ahoms and Pandyas and Marathas are all some regional powers. Speaker 1 (6:20) Mauryan Empire also doesn't find mention as much as it should. Speaker 2 (6:23) Yeah. Who knows if one is to look Samudra Speaker 1 (6:27) Gupta do you know about him? Does anybody know about him? No. And he was Speaker 2 (6:30) one of the greatest rulers. Correct. So that's I think one thing where a more equitable distribution of regional quote-unquote regional stories, micro histories, which gets subsumed in this so-called national mainstream history, which ends up being Delhi's history. And imagine the plight of a Northeasterner who probably is studying in Delhi. He or she will not have any of her heroes even being discussed in the class with. her colleagues, what kind of an emotional integration can you then expect from such people? So I think this is one major issue of a larger inclusion of all parts of India in what we call an Indian history. The other would of course be the fact that as we've discussed earlier, that Indian history is like a litany of defeats that we suffered as a nation, as a civilization. Students can remember almost by rote every war that we lost. Right from the Arab invasions to all these battles of Tarain and Panipat and Plasi and Buxar and Anglo-Mysore, Anglo-Maratha, Anglo-Sikh wars. But if we are the only pre-Bronze Age era civilization that is still surviving, I mean, there ought to be some battles we won too. And, you know, some kind of courage that we showed. And it is not the sense of jingoism that one is talking about this. But honestly, the fact that so much of our traditions, our civilization survives, there has to be a resilience that our ancestors put, right? And which is not just physical resistance, but also resistance and resilience of spirit in the wake of... every invasion, every attack to obliterate us, the fact that our languages, our customs, our cuisine, our costumes, our rituals and traditions are still alive. I mean, it just can't happen. There has to be some amount of, you know, character, strength of character that our people had. So why is that never conveyed in the manner it needs to be to... to children of an impressionable age because of course you know history has a larger role especially at a school level they are also instilling fact based pride I mean you're not just Mera Bharat Mahan everything about the past is great we knew how to use the internet and that kind of lunism is another extreme but genuine pride for what your ancestors did I think that is also largely missing in the way we convey to our And of course, this larger, the grand Indian narrative in the 5000, 8000, whatever number of documented history that we have, 8000 years, what was the grand Indian narrative? What was the Indian mind thinking? What was the very unique Indian solution to every issue and every... field of human knowledge it could be philosophy it could be the sciences mathematics or just you know understanding life medicine yoga the mind body you know connection I think India has always had a very unique solution to every problem and the sad part is we as Indians do not know much about it yeah so I like the grand Chinese narrative that the Chinese have managed to put out Speaker 1 (10:02) also many of us got taken in by the narrative which was imposed on us by others Speaker 2 (10:09) believing Speaker 1 (10:10) that to be the thing that India didn't exist. It was just there was no geographical unity there was no there wasn't a concept of India till the British came in. So many people I have seen why? Because they were taught that. Correct. So it's not as if it was a supplanted idea. Speaker 2 (10:29) So Speaker 1 (10:30) they believe in it because it was taught like that. And then now if you argue with them, it was like, no, no, if we were taught this, there must have been a grain of truth in it. You know, so unless those books are not altered, it's not going to change this. And so who would you expect this change to come from? Is it thought leaders? Is it the ministry? central ministry, what do you think? Because everybody seems to be more consumed about the exams which are happening and you know, Speaker 2 (11:01) all Speaker 1 (11:02) that. And now in the age of AI, the large learning models are getting their information from these texts only. So, what do you think is the solution? Speaker 2 (11:13) Well, I wish it was so simple. And see, of course, government is a force multiplier and to scale anything up, to the level that the whole country then looks up to it. It is the government and the textbooks and it's been 12 years. We are still making piecemeal changes. I think some amount of change has happened up to class 8, class 9, I guess, with the NCRT textbooks, with all the accompanying furor and fury with the judiciary stepping in, the social sciences textbooks being taken back. Speaker 2 (11:48) I think it's Speaker 1 (11:49) a Speaker 2 (11:49) combination. It's both the government, which is, of course, the largest scalable entity. But I think a lot of individuals, intellectuals also have to do their role. And that was the entire purpose, Smita, for which I mean, I remember having this conversation with you about two, three years ago, when it was still an idea in my mind that not enough is being done. for historical research in this country. Even though I believe, and I may be biased as a historian, that history is the fundamental, you know, marker of our identity. And we may become a militarily strong, economically strong power, but if our sense of identity and self-worth, which is, I think, our operating system, if that is corrupted, then I don't think we can do that well, especially with this kind of self-image or self-worth we have of being a nation of no-gooders, that we were always destined to be ruled by people who came from outside, who civilized us, who brought us together. How can a country march ahead to the future with any sense of self-confidence and respect? And so... A lot of people, particularly on the non-left, if you could categorize them as, you know, they just end up cribbing and complaining. I mean, in 1980s, you had Mr. Arun Shoury who wrote that fantastic book, Eminent Historians, which kind of laid bare the modus operandi of many of these eminences who are still around and who still keep pontificating on a daily basis. And the kind of you know, hideous means they employed to write the history of this country and also their very difficult role they played in conflicts including the Ram Janmabhoomi dispute by giving false affidavits, false testimonies in court. Despite all that, these people are still there as pundits to pontificate and nobody has really, you know, taken them to task for what they've done. But all of this has been documented but in our congregations, conclaves, lit fest, there is always one session which says Marxist distortion of Indian history and there is a regurgitation of the same thing. You know, I usually say it's like putting a voodoo doll of Romila Thapar and Irfan Habib and D.N. Jha and all of these people and keep sticking pins on it. I don't think that helps because They have done what they have done. They have a lifetime of scholarship. Even to this day, we may say many things, governments have changed and this and that, but still the textbooks or the books that people study in schools. Source it Speaker 1 (14:29) from there. Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:30) And I mean, what the UPSC training, I mean, the future bureaucracy of India is again reading the same kind of books. So where is the change happening? So Speaker 1 (14:39) if they were to read, if from middle school onwards, to the UPSC training that is done. If they were to read about the Vijayanagara kingdom, the Ahoms, which... They don't. If they were to read, I'm just saying, if the books were in this utopian world that we are talking about, where the change occurs, if they read about the Cholas, if they read about the Marathas, if they read about all this, how would the rewiring take place? you know, if you were to see that, how can that take place if it happens? Speaker 2 (15:14) I think the very problems that we discussed in the beginning that, you know, this sense of a loser nation or the sense that we were no gooders or that we were never one and we always depended on an external source to come and civilize us in every way, even unify us. That Speaker 1 (15:35) will change, you feel? Speaker 2 (15:36) To a large extent. Once you... get an alternative perspective on that. Because see, I mean, I've always held there's a difference between a nation and a nation state. A nation state could be defined by borders that you draw, by laws that are promulgated and these can keep changing. But what is a nation, a rashtra and a rajya? You know, a rashtra, as Atalji had said, Bharat ek jeeta jagta rashtra purush hai. It's something that's been throbbing for centuries and in our puja sankalp also, it starts with, you know, Jambudvi pe, Bharatvarshe, Bharatakhande. So, we were very clear about the sacred geography that we inhabit. The Vishnu Puran talks of that very famous shlok which everyone quotes, which is, Uttaramyat samudrasya, Himadraschaiva dakshinam. The Speaker 1 (16:26) geographical location. Speaker 2 (16:28) Varshatad Bharatam Nama Bharati Yatra Santati. The people who live in this landmass south of the Himalayas and north of the ocean, they are called, the children are called Bharatiyas and the Varsha or country is called Bharat. Now, this is a... text which some say date back to the 2nd or 3rd century BCE and some say 9th century, but whatever, almost a thousand plus years, there was a very clear renunciation of what this nation was. Our ancestors undertook pilgrimages to various places, right? Nobody stopped them saying, you're coming from another country. Or when Adi Shankara from that little village in Kerala, when he went three times across the length and breadth of this country and actually put those mats, he would have established it in Kerala and instead the southern mat in Sringeri, east in Puri, the north in Badri and the west in Dwarka. He was literally, I think, marking the perimeter of the sacred geography. And if you see all our Shaktipithas, our Jyotirlingas, the Saptapuris, all of these are scattered across in some way, giving us a Speaker 2 (17:41) emotional border rather than a political geographical border of what Bharat Varsha was I think to connect to that sense of the past of our emotional integration as a people without having I mean, political debates, political fights happen. It happens now, right? Between a Congress ruled and a BJP ruled state. So what are we talking about ancient times when kings were killing each other? So that's normal. But is that sense of commonality not there? I think when that basic question is addressed, you can see how a lot of things fall in place about our self-identity as a nation and a civilization. And Speaker 1 (18:21) that identity has got... withered away to a great extent and the reason why it withers away is if you don't have pride in your own culture and I you know just an anecdote is that once when I was in Bali there was just a crockery shop that I entered two sisters running this and they had a Ganesha murti and a Lakshmi and another god which I couldn't identify later came to know it is Varuna and you know there was a little table in which people had put their sneakers and shoes and things like that. And so when they entered, even in a shop, they took off their shoes and they walked in. So the first thing you do is you take off your shoes and then the next thing you see is incense sticks and flowers in a flower pot next to these guards. And then you entered, so little foyer and then you entered the shop. So I saw that and I did that and I walked in. So those two sisters, probably in their late 70s or early 80s, very sweet ladies, they asked me, which part of India have you come from? So I said, Delhi. So she said, how nice that you knew this tradition. So I said, but won't all Indians who come into your shop do this? So she said, no, everybody from Bali does it, but people from India don't do it. She says, you don't know your own traditions. We are not geographically united with you because we have a distance. But we have the seas between us. Speaker 2 (19:52) But Speaker 1 (19:52) this is your culture and your countrymen don't take off their shoes. We have to tell them, take off your shoes. We have to tell them that take the blessings of the God before we come. So I said, but in a shop, why would you need somebody to take the blessings? So you know what she said? She said, because it's transaction of Artha. Speaker 1 (20:12) Money. You know, they associate money with God and when that transaction is to take place, they want that blessing from both sides. From the person giving the money and they're not Hindus. Speaker 2 (20:27) Wow. They're Speaker 1 (20:28) not Hindu women. But they said it is Artha, so it needs the blessing of Lakshmi, Ganesha and Varun because whatever the reason is that... that transaction needs the blessing that happens from both sides. And I said, oh my God, nowhere in India have I seen this. Speaker 2 (20:44) Exactly. So now we see at such fundamental levels are rewiring that needs to happen for the Bharat Bhagya Vedatas of the future. So Speaker 1 (20:55) I was just doing it like a courtesy thing. I didn't realize the thought that went into it. That lady knew it. Speaker 2 (21:00) Wow. Speaker 1 (21:00) She appreciated a part of a culture which we have forgotten about. Speaker 2 (21:04) Right. Speaker 1 (21:05) You know, so this is why I feel that somewhere it's not enough for some of us who have learnt it from our dadi, nani and whatever and parents and stuff. It needs to come from teachers and gurus and in the modern education system. Right Speaker 2 (21:21) and I think there's no alternative to good scholarships Mita and that's something we don't Which you Speaker 1 (21:27) do from here. Tell me about this. Speaker 2 (21:29) So I mean as I was saying instead of this whole whining, complaining talking about Marxist distortion, which is fine. I mean, they did what they did. But today, what is the alternative that we've built to that? As I said, I mean, Romila Thapar's book on ancient India and so on would be the go-to book for everyone. Where is an alternative version to that? Or where is something else that we've written on medieval India, on some of the issues that confront us, even on the Mughals and all of this? Just YouTube videos, Twitter threads and Instagram reels are not going to count as scholarship. They are very, very ephemeral. They're going to last for probably as little as the attention span of people is there today. So, this was deeply troubling me for a very long time that why are we not investing in scholarship which is lasting. See, all said and done, as an author, I know people's reading habits have probably come down and that's very sad. Sure. Uh, but then, uh, even to this day, examinations and everything is written based as a book. So a book is something which will last 100, 200 years after the author is dead and gone also perhaps. And so that's how, uh, in 2024, about two years ago, um, this foundation for Indian historical and cultural research, FIHCR was established precisely to do this. That is to provide an alternative scholarship on Indian history, but something that is seen without an ideological lens. Uh, with evidence-based research, which goes back to the primary sources. Now, this Sanskrit term, itihas, for history, it actually translates to, it thus happened. Ye aise hua