Omer Bartov on Gaza, Genocide and American Complicity

American Power

In this episode of American Power, host Nat Towson is joined by Omer Bartov, Brown University professor and Holocaust and Genocide Studies expert, to

Key takeaways

• Genocide requires not just mass killing but intentional destruction of a group, defined by nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion.
• Bartov identifies Israel's systematic targeting of infrastructure—homes, schools, hospitals, mosques—as evidence of genocidal intent.

Main topics

• Definition and legal criteria for genocide
• Israel's military operations in Gaza, particularly in Rafah

Notable quotes

"Genocide is not simply killing many people. It is trying to destroy the group that these people belong to."

Conclusion

Bartov argues that the evidence—both in rhetoric and systematic destruction—demonstr

Transcript preview

Speaker 4 (0:16) You're listening to American Power from Find Out Media. I'm your host, Nat Towson, stand-up comedian, political speechwriter, many other forms of writer, and most likely to get me listed on the Canary Mission website, podcast host. I'm joined, as always, by my panel of experts, our expert on foreign policy and the military, Chad Scott. Chad, how's Speaker 3 (0:35) it Speaker 4 (0:35) going? Speaker 3 (0:36) It's going really well. Looking forward to the guest we have also in the new digs here. If you're on the YouTube channel, you can see the office update I have done. Speaker 4 (0:45) If you aren't and you're only listening to the audio version, Chad's background can be decided as so nice that it's almost deliberately criticizing how sparse my background is. Great job Speaker 1 (0:57) with the redesign there, Chad. Speaker 4 (0:59) And joining us, of course, as always, another member of our panel, our expert on renewable energy, oil, the energy industry as a whole. You know him as Mr. Global, Matt Randolph. Matt, how's it going? How's your Labor Day weekend? Speaker 2 (1:13) It's going great. I'm totally in love with Chad's background. His skin looks so much better. I'm curious, though. I see a lot of Boise State there. How'd they do this weekend? You Speaker 3 (1:23) know, there is such a thing as a good loss. Like, it's the number two team in the country. I'm just messing with you. I'm hearing a lot of rationalization here. Speaker 2 (1:31) I'm not one of those guys, Chad. I'm just messing with you. No, not at all. Not at all. You can never antagonize someone. Speaker 3 (1:36) Yeah. Speaker 4 (1:38) And for those listening at home, we are recording this, as I mentioned, on Labor Day, Monday, September 7th, around 6 p.m. in the evening. So the wound is still very fresh for Chad. But for the rest of you out there, I'm very excited to bring on. We have a special guest for this specific episode who will be joining us, joining our panel, joining as our special guest. He is the dean professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University. He was born and raised in Israel. He has served in the Israeli Defense Forces for four years, including during the Yom Kippur War, before becoming a historian whose work has focused extensively on the Holocaust, genocide, war, and mass violence. His books include the award-winning Anatomy of a Genocide, The Life and Death of a Town Called Buchach, and his newest book, Israel, What Went Wrong. He's also a major voice in the debate over Gaza in its current state, where he argues that Israel is committing a genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza, a position that he laid out in a influential 2025 New York Times essay entitled, I'm a Genocide Scholar. I know it when I see it. I'm very happy to have him on the podcast. It is my great pleasure to welcome Professor Omer Bartov. Professor Bartov, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to American Power. Thanks Speaker 1 (2:49) for having me. Speaker 4 (2:50) Of course. We have a lot to talk about. I want to jump right in to your area of expertise. I think your path towards your current position is really interesting and nuanced. And before we dive into the current state of Gaza and the genocide, I would love to hear a little bit more about your background and what led you to this work initially. Speaker 1 (3:11) Yeah, thanks. I'll try to be brief. So my path was. Speaker 1 (3:19) I served, as you mentioned, in the IDF many years ago. I ended up as a company commander. I became a military historian initially, and I was especially interested in the case of the German army in World War II, and especially on the Eastern Front in the war against the Red Army. in which the German army became deeply complicit in mass crimes. And so I was trying to understand what happened there, why did soldiers do what they do, and why was there such a cover-up of that for many years? When I started researching that in the 1980s, the general view was that the German army was a decent army and that all the crimes were committed behind the back of the fighting soldiers. And so this was my introduction to look at modern armies and how they become involved in mass crimes and then try to cover that up. I then moved to studying genocide more generally. And as you mentioned, spent many years studying the Holocaust. But as someone born and raised in Israel and someone who spent the first half of my life in Israel, I came to this country in my mid-30s, I became increasingly concerned with what was happening in my own state and in the army that I'd served in. And that concern grew following the Hamas attack of October 7th. And so it was at that point that I started observing as closely as I can what was going on there. I went to Israel for several visits, and I tried to explain to myself and to others what I think. Israel was actually trying to accomplish in Gaza. And that led me to writing several op-eds that began by warning that what Israel was doing, that was in November of 2023, warning that what the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, were doing in Gaza might well lead to a genocidal operation. And then concluding several months later that indeed, because the U.S. government, which could have stopped Israel, did not do so under President Biden, that had become a genocidal operation. And Speaker 4 (5:55) initially, you, like many scholars, resisted immediately applying the label of a genocide. And you said in an interview that the Rafah operation in particular was sort of a turning point for your views on. Israel's actions in Gaza. I'm curious what specifically about there became either crossed a threshold or became undeniable to a degree. I mean, I remember a few specifics, but I'm very curious as to what it was for you that went from the hesitance towards using that label to seeing something that you felt was definitively a genocide. Speaker 1 (6:28) So let me say first that I hesitated to use it or did not want to use it as long as I was not sure that it applied. And the reason for that is that people have tended to use the term genocide not so much the way it should be used, which is according to the definition that is provided by the convention. on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide of 1948, but rather as a term of scandal, of outrage, of condemnation. When you see something terrible happen, you know that genocide is supposed to be the crime of crimes, and you say this must be genocide. But also because the term genocide has been applied to Israel in the past. and incorrectly. And so there was a danger that this time too, immediately people would cry out, well, Israel is carrying out genocide without there being proof of it, just as a condemnation of Israeli policies. And there's plenty to condemn in Israeli policies, but not all of them are genocidal. And so that was the reason that I waited to make sure that I thought it was. Now, it should be said that genocide, as defined in the UN Convention of 1948, has a particular definition, and that is actions taken out or carried out with the intent to destroy a particular group in whole or in part as such. And that group can be a national group, an ethnic group, a racial group, or a religious group. Speaker 1 (8:13) So genocide is not simply killing many people. It is trying to destroy the group that these people belong to. People are killed as members of that group with the intent of destroying it, of wiping it out. And there are various types of actions, including killing members of the group, creating conditions that would be conducive to death of members of the group, causing... Speaker 1 (8:38) significant mental and physical harm to members of the group, as well as preventing births in the group. So this is the definition. So what you need to do is to identify an intent, because intent is a very important element of the definition, and then you have to show that that intent is being carried out, is being implemented. Now, curiously and uncharacteristically, after October 7th, Israeli political and military leaders made statements indicating intent very quickly. That's not normal. That's not the way things go. Usually, states and organizations carrying out genocide say it isn't, say it's something else. In this case, there were, in fact, statements indicating an intent, which themselves Speaker 1 (9:31) criminal, because they can be seen as incitement. But the question was whether this was the policy, or these were simply statements made in the heat of the moment after the massacre of hundreds of Israeli civilians by Hamas. And what happened by May of 2024 was that you could show, and that, as you mentioned, was particularly clear during the IDF's operation in Rafah, in May of 2024, that there had been a pattern of operations. And the other way of showing intent, if you cannot refer only to statements by leaders or if such statements don't exist, is that there is a pattern of operation that shows that that is the intent. And the pattern of operations by the Israeli military between October of 23 and May of 24 showed deliberate, intentional, and systematic destruction of housing, of mosques, of universities, of schools, of agricultural land, of water plants, of power plants, intended to make Gaza uninhabitable for its population, and an attempt to push the population from the north to the south to the Egyptian border, which is a strip at the southern tip of the Gaza Strip. so as to empty the area of Palestinians. That is, it was an attempted ethnic cleansing. Because the Palestinians had no place to go to because the borders were closed, that ethnic cleansing, as has happened in many other past genocides, became genocidal. And so it was in May, June of 2024 that I concluded that there was no other way to describe this. but as a genocide operation. And they wrote about this originally in August of 24, The Guardian. Speaker 4 (11:25) One of my memories also of the Rafah operation, a number of hospitals were targeted in Rafah. I mean, every hospital was targeted. And regardless of Israeli messaging or PR, whether Hamas is hiding in these hospitals or whatever the intention was behind these strikes, we saw doctors executed. We saw incubators left unpowered. And I'm curious. That was one of the things that I try not to respond sensationally to the most emotionally striking images, because these are things we have to look at even handed and we run the risk of being manipulated by the most sensational, horrific, though they may be details. But I do know I will say that, you know, speaking from my own emotions, from my own personal experience, the targeted strikes on hospitals and on medical professionals who had stuck it out in hopes of helping people who had already been struck by these strikes and helping people recover. was a pretty unforgivable turning point to me. And I'm curious whether that factored into your decision as well. Do you see that striking as hospitals as part of that campaign of elimination of a people if they can't be born, if they can't receive medical treatment? Speaker 1 (12:31) It is, of course. And as I said, of the four, there are five types of actions. of which four apply, five types of actions that can come under the definition of genocide, of which four apply. The only one that doesn't seem to apply is kidnapping of children. And that has been applied actually to Vladimir Putin, who is doing that, has been doing that in Ukraine, kidnapping Ukrainian children, trying to convert them to be Russian children. Israel is not doing that because it's not interested in Palestinian children. But what it is doing is creating conditions that would lead to the death of large numbers of people, even if it is not directly killing them. If you destroy hospitals, if you destroy the entire medical system, what you're doing is you're preventing births because children cannot be born safely. You are also... harming people who are chronically ill who need help in hospitals. It means that people wounded will not get medical care. And it means that the elderly are much more likely to die because they too will not get any sufficient help. So that applies at least to two. of the four actions under the Genocide Convention, both of creating conditions that would create indirectly the death of people and preventing births in the group. And we know that there's been a huge rise in miscarriages in Gaza, and that is because of both lack of medical help. Children who are prematurely born cannot receive the help they need. And of course, because of lack of food. And the Israeli Minister of Defense, a couple of days after the Hamas attack, already said they will have no food, they will have no water, they will have no power. If you have no food, no water, no power, that means, of course, that many people will die. And the line in Israel was, and in many ways remains to this day, that there are no uninvolved people in Gaza. That is, you're not only attacking Hamas, And arguably, the Israeli state and the Israeli army had reason to go after Hamas after the attack of October 7th. You are targeting the entire population of Gaza. And that is what has happened. And it's continuing to happen. And you talk about the scandal of watching this and how difficult it is to watch it. But it has to be said that the American media and the European media have been very reluctant to show these images. If you really want to see what is happening in Gaza, the only place where you can see these images is on Al Jazeera. And Israel has closed off the Gaza Strip from October 7th until today. International media cannot get in, cannot report, and therefore the public, which ought to be scandalized by what is happening, is largely not watching it. And the media corporations that ought to put pressure on their governments to allow them to report are not doing so. And so there is in some ways a conspiracy of... American and European mainstream media not to report on the horrors that are happening in Gaza, which would, I think, greatly impact public opinion if they were shown. Well, Speaker 4 (16:08) not to compliment us too much, but I really appreciate you joining us for this conversation, especially because of that. I Speaker 3 (16:13) agree with you completely on this position. I've read your work and things like that. But let me play devil's advocate real quick. Let me, I mean, we're both members of the military. We understand red teaming. The strongest position that is taken against your argument is that Israel was attacked on October 7th and Hamas deliberately operates among civilians. They hold, they've held hostages and that's kind of an attack that they continue to use. Israel repeatedly argues that civilian deaths are just a consequence of fighting an enemy that's embedded in dense urban terrain. We're hearing that it's considered a genocide. You and Nat had a great conversation about this being a genocide. But is this not just war crimes? We can say that there are legitimate war crimes here being committed on both sides. What exactly is it that is specifically taking this to the genocide instead of it just being a focus on investigations for war crimes? Speaker 1 (17:07) Yeah, I mean, when you say legitimate war crimes, you don't actually mean war crimes that are legitimate. but that they are clearly war crimes. Yeah, Speaker 4 (17:16) they're Speaker 1 (17:16) clearly, yeah, exactly. Speaker 4 (17:19) Categorically war crimes, I think you could say. Yeah, Speaker 1 (17:21) because war crimes are severe breaches of international law. And even if people say, well, it's not genocide, it's only war crimes. People should be punished for war crimes and for crimes against humanity. So one problem with talking about genocide is that the argument is, whether it's genocide or not, is if war crimes are fine and crimes against humanity are okay, which is exterminating civilian populations, which are not identified necessarily as members of the group. That's the difference between genocide and crimes against humanity. So you ask really two questions. One is, whether it's legitimate to say that, yes, there's collateral damage. There always is when you fight against the surges who are fighting from a built-up area, and maybe the collateral damage is greater than usual, but that's no genocide. That's really part of the situation that Hamas has created. Speaker 1 (18:24) So let's think about it this way. First of all, Hamas, whether you support them or not, and I'm certainly not a supporter of Hamas, Hamas is an insurgent group that is working from the area in which it lives. That area is one of the most, or was, because most of it is destroyed now, but was one of the most densely populated areas in the world. That's where they were operating from. It was a heavily built up area and they were operating from within it. Yes, if you go against that group, which numbered between 20 and 40,000 militants, mostly lightly armed, of course, with RPGs and AK-47s, if you operate against a group like that, you are likely to cause a great deal of collateral damage. That's absolutely true. The question is, first of all, how much? damage stops being collateral damage and becomes deliberate damage, right? So you can say if it's a war crime, you would say you were using disproportionate force. You used a one-ton bomb, right, a 900-pound bomb to destroy a school in which there were 200 or 300 people that you told to go there. as a safe place, because under that school, you identified or you assumed there might be three or four or five militants. And in the process of doing that, you might have killed 70 or 80 people and wounded another 130 people, mutilated them. That can easily be called a war crime, because it's disproportionate. The amount of force used is disproportionate to the target itself. It's specific on that, right? And of that, there were plenty of war crimes. There's no question. But then you have to look at the pattern of operations. What is the pattern? What was the Israeli army trying to accomplish? Was it trying to destroy Hamas, which, as you say, Hamas carried out war crimes and crimes against humanity on October 7th. There's no question about it. It killed many civilians and it took hostages. These are very severe crimes. And I wish one could actually get those leaders and put them on trial. They're all dead because the Israelis killed