Get Lit: George Saunders' 'Lincoln in the Bardo,' Now An Opera at the Met

All Of It with Alison Stewart

Author George Saunders discusses the decades-long creative journey behind his Booker Prize-winning novel Lincoln in the Bardo, detailing its experimental structure, historical

Key takeaways

• Saunders spent roughly thirty years developing Lincoln in the Bardo after hearing a newspaper account of Abraham Lincoln visiting his son Willie's crypt in Georgetown cemetery.
• His degree in geophysical engineering from Colorado School of Mines instilled a 'no partial credit' mindset that revolutionized his approach to drafting and revision.

Main topics

• Creative writing process & revision techniques
• Historical research & use of primary sources in fiction

Notable quotes

"I just gave myself like a six-month contract where I wouldn't tell anybody about it, but I'd try it."

Conclusion

The episode provides a rich exploration of Saunders' literary methodol

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:09) are listening to All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Booker Prize winning novel Lincoln in the Bardo was named one of the 20 best books of the 21st century by the New York Times. And now it's set to head on stage at the Metropolitan Opera. Speaker 1 (0:52) Later this hour, you're going to hear a sneak preview of that opera with special live performances from Lincoln and the Bardo cast members. But first, we'll hear from the man behind the story that started it all, author George Saunders. Speaker 1 (1:12) George Saunders had already been writing short stories for years when he published his first novel, a story of grief and love with an unusual structure. The story takes place over the course of one night in a Georgetown cemetery. Abraham Lincoln is grieving the death of his 11-year-old son, Willie. Late at night, with no one else around, Lincoln heads to the graveyard to hold the body of his beloved boy. But it turns out there are souls around. They're just dead. The graveyard is populated by ghosts, spirits who are lingering in the strange space between life and the afterlife. Most of them don't realize they're dead. They think they're resting in sick boxes and might get better at any moment. When the ghost of Willie Lincoln arrives in the graveyard, three spirits, Reverend Everly Thomas, Hans Vollman, and Roger Bevins III decide to help the boy move on to the afterlife. But President Lincoln's arrival in the graveyard changes everything. Lincoln in the Bardo took home the Booker Prize in 2017. It has been adapted into an opera and a movie version is in the works starring Tom Hanks as Lincoln. The novel was our September Get Lit Book Club selection in a special collaboration with the Metropolitan Opera. George Saunders joined us for the evening. Let's dive into our conversation. Speaker 5 (2:46) So when you wrote this book, you were already well-known as a short story writer. Did this book expand out of a short story, or was a novel always in the making? Speaker 2 (2:57) It didn't expand. This book has about a 30-year history, because I first heard the story about Lincoln going into his son's crypt. I don't remember the year, but Bill Clinton was president. Speaker 5 (3:08) Okay. Speaker 2 (3:08) Yeah, and I was four years old. But we literally drove by the cemetery, and a relative of my wife pointed up at a certain Speaker 6 (3:17) crypt and said, Willie Lincoln was buried there, and the newspapers reported that his father was so grief-stricken that he went in. Speaker 1 (3:26) I Speaker 6 (3:26) was like, who's Willie Lincoln? That was the first thing. But then I researched it, and that actually was in the newspaper. So at that point, I started to think about it. I thought, that would be a great book for somebody to write. But I didn't think there was an intersection between what I knew how to do and what the book would require. So I just kept waiting. And then finally, I don't know, it was maybe 20 years later, I thought, this is the time. Or otherwise, my gravestone is going to say, avoided what he most longed to do. So I just gave myself like a six-month contract where I wouldn't tell anybody about it, but I'd try it. Because it was different for me. It was more earnest, a little less funny, I guess. Speaker 5 (4:10) Well, one thing I learned about you is that you have a degree in geophysical engineering. So how does your science brain work with the creative writing side of your brain? Speaker 6 (4:22) Well, you know, actually, I went to this place called the Colorado School of Mines. Not like mimes, but mines. M Speaker 5 (4:29) -I-N-E-S. Speaker 6 (4:30) Yeah, I had a major in glass wall walking. And one of the things they taught us there was the mantra was no partial credit, which meant if you got to the end of a long proof and you got it wrong, you got zero. So I actually found that really useful as a writer because, you know, there's not necessarily a connection between effort and result. You have to keep trying. So if you get into draft 50 and it still stinks, it still stinks. So that sounds kind of bleak when I say it that way, but that really is, for me, that's a lot of it is you can't think that because you've done it a million times it's good, and then you have to kind of ascend to a different level where you're really in touch with what you think is good, and that's where I think a lot of the stuff happens. Did Speaker 5 (5:12) that help you with your revisions? Speaker 2 (5:13) Oh, so much, yeah. And the other part, of course, in engineering school is, If something goes wrong in an equation, you can see where eventually if you look closely. So in writing stories, that's my philosophy, is you just start reading it. And if you feel good about it, great. No revision necessary. But if you get to a place where the energy drops... Speaker 6 (5:35) then the first thing you have to do is admit it. That's the hard part. Because usually if your story goes bad, you just think, it's fine. It was fine yesterday. I'm not going to worry about it. But then I think the sort of more professional response is to kind of turn to the story and say, well, what's happening? And the story will go, nothing to see here. Keep going. But then you have to kind of, almost like you're a parent, you've got to say, no, come on. the story. Speaker 2 (6:00) Come sit in my lap. We're going to talk about this. So that was from engineering. Because if something has gone wrong, it's gone wrong at a certain Speaker 6 (6:07) place in the text. So then you can kind of come back and examine. Speaker 5 (6:11) You have been very honest that people have come to you at book signing and said, I really wanted to get into the book, but I couldn't kind of get past page 30. And you even did an online video for how to read Lincoln in the Barrow. I watched it. First of all, what is it about page 30 that people get stuck? I don't Speaker 6 (6:32) know, but it was reliably, people would be really irate and they would always give me the damn page number. So it was page 30 and I threw it across the room with my husband. So yeah. Speaker 5 (6:42) For people watching and listening who haven't read the book yet. What advice do you have for them? How to get into Lincoln and Labardo? Go Speaker 6 (6:51) watch that video. No, I mean, part of the weirdness was I worked really hard to make, I thought, the widest doorway I could so people could get into the book. But it's got a strange form. So I think the one thing I would say is, well, maybe a cheat, which is the first guy is dead. And then after that, just kind of watch Speaker 2 (7:12) the way his language gets weird. And that will tell you that he's dead, and then it'll kind of open the book to you. But basically, I feel like it's totally fine if it's difficult. There's no problem. I think there's actually, after all these years of hearing that, there's maybe different neurological patterns to reading. And this book is made of all monologues. So I have a feeling that for certain, even very good readers, There's a moment where they can't assemble the monologues into a physical scene. Speaker 6 (7:42) And so then at some point it gets to be too much to carry in the bucket and they move on. But it's not, Speaker 2 (7:47) I mean, I know people who've read James Joyce, Ulysses, but couldn't get into this one. So it's not, it's no blame, no blame, you know. Speaker 5 (7:57) When you started researching Abraham Lincoln, what detail that you learned in your research, it really helps you inform your approach to the character? The Speaker 2 (8:09) biggest one, there was a book called The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln, which is a really amazing book. It's just a factual account of everything snotty or heartless somebody said about Speaker 6 (8:20) or to Lincoln during his presidency. And it's a big, thick book. And he was really... Speaker 2 (8:25) hated by a lot of people. I mean, you know, for a lot of reasons. And so there was something about that. And I knew about this, his son passing away. And I also knew that he and Marriott had a big party in the White House that it would be hard not to link to the kids' death. They got sick. They were sick during it, actually, and then they got worse after. And then the third thing about him Speaker 6 (8:49) being so hated at that point, and actually he was doing a pretty bad job at that point. He hadn't quite figured it out. So I thought that's so human, Speaker 2 (8:57) you know, to have not just one problem. But the world sometimes seems Speaker 6 (9:02) to just, you know, load it up. And it made me so sympathetic for this poor man who's in a graveyard in the freezing cold and nothing is going right. And I thought, well, that's the test, really, you know. Speaker 2 (9:15) It's one thing to have a great spirit when everything's going beautifully. But when the world is loading these disasters on you one after the next, then we find out who you are, you know. Speaker 5 (9:26) It's interesting. In the book, there are a series of factual events based on real text. Doris Kearns Goodwin, Elizabeth Keckley, who is Mary Todd Lincoln's dressmaker. Those are real. Some of them aren't. What did you want to accomplish with these primary sources, the ones that are real? My Speaker 2 (9:45) thing about stories is you kind of want to keep it simple. Don't do anything crazy or experimental. unless the text tells you you have to. So in this book, I had one draft which was all ghosts and Lincoln. And it was something about it felt like there was just too many Speaker 6 (10:02) ghosts, you know. And ghosts are like dream sequences. You can do whatever you want. So at some point, the reader's patience Speaker 2 (10:09) gets a little thin. Speaker 6 (10:11) And Speaker 2 (10:11) also, in reading that draft, I wasn't being moved by it, really. And I thought, well, why not? And the answer was, well, because you know a bunch of background stuff Speaker 6 (10:20) about the party, about Lincoln's unpopularity, that the audience has no way of knowing. So I do a lot of talking to myself when Speaker 2 (10:27) I'm writing. Speaker 6 (10:28) And Speaker 2 (10:28) I say, yeah, that's a problem. Speaker 2 (10:32) And then part of my brain said, well, how do you know it? Speaker 6 (10:35) Well, I read