18th Century France's Most Outrageous Spy

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - History Hit

This episode of After Dark explores the enigmatic life of the Chevalier d'Eon, an 18th-century French spy, diplomat, and fencer whose gender identi

Key takeaways

• The Chevalier d'Eon used both male and female pronouns throughout their life, with a shift from predominantly 'he/him' to 'she/her' in later years, reflecting evolving self-presentation rather than a fixed identity.

Main topics

• 18th-century French espionage
• The Secret du Roy spy network

Notable quotes

"Our responsibility is to the past. The past doesn't owe us anything."

Conclusion

The Chevalier d'Eon remains a figure of enduring mystery whose life embodies the power of disguise in both

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:01) Hello, After Dark listeners. It is I, Anthony Delaney, one of your co-hosts from, of course, After Dark. Now, listen, we have some good news. We have been shortlisted for the top 20 in the Listener's Choice Award category for this year's British Podcast Awards. Now, we made the top, I think it was five last year. So we are greedy historians and we want to make that top five again. This year, things are slightly different, though. You can only vote for us in this long list in the Spotify app. and you'll find a link in this week's episode that'll take you to vote for us. As a matter of fact, you can vote for us three times. So if you feel so inclined, please do that. We want to make that top five. We're going to smash it this year. I think we're going to take it, he said with absolutely no confidence. But lend us your vote and we'll see how well we get on. Heading for the top five. I know we can do it. Speaker 1 (1:01) London, 1770. The Chevalier d'Eon was a French diplomat, a celebrated fencer, and a secret agent who held explosive state secrets. Someone who knew exactly where France's darkest plans were buried and threatened to expose them. But was the Chevalier d'Anne a man or a woman? And whose business was it anyway? Crowds placed their bets, coffee houses filled with rumours and newspapers cooked up a scandal. In an age of war, deception and rigid ideas of identity, no one embodied the dangerous power of a disguise quite like the Chevalier d'Anne. Welcome to After Dark. Speaker 3 (1:55) Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddy. And Speaker 1 (1:57) I'm Anthony. Speaker 3 (1:58) Now, as with every spy story, success often depends on disappearing into another identity entirely. They become someone else. They adopt new names, new loyalties and even new faces. Few lives capture that idea more completely than that of the Chevalier de Honne. Soldier, diplomat, spy and one of the 18th century's greatest enigmas. It's a story that Anthony covers in his book Queer Georgians. Anthony, I feel like I'm interviewing you now. You are. When did you first come across this extraordinary life? Because I think for 18th centuryists, it's someone who is quite well known in our field. Speaker 1 (2:39) But Speaker 3 (2:40) beyond that... maybe has sort of enjoyed a renaissance in recent years, but it's still quite new to the public, I think. Speaker 1 (2:45) Yeah, I mean, I actually can't wait to get your take on this in the end because it's, the Svaljardion is somebody who is very much in the periphery of, you know, if you Google them, they'll be there. If you, you know, it's something that people may be slightly aware of. You see a picture going, oh, this is some kind of gender bending, swashbuckling kind of... fencer type thing. And so. Speaker 3 (3:12) Yes, because the famous image of them in, I think in a dress, but fencing with a sword, fencing a man. Yeah, Speaker 1 (3:19) yeah, yeah. The Chevalier Saint-Georges. That's the sort of, Speaker 3 (3:23) the image that people might have in their minds. Speaker 1 (3:26) Yeah, yeah. So it really, like, it was there, I knew there was some kind of gender non-conformity. And then I was like, well, I'm going to have to look at this for the book. It wasn't part of my PhD, but then for the book I had to look at it. And actually, one of the reasons why I can't wait to get your take on this now at the end is because I've fallen out of love with it a little bit since the book came out. Because, not the book, this particular history, because it frustrates me. Because in its unknowability, and we'll talk about some of that, what you see, particularly online, is that people fill in the blanks to serve a very modern narrative. And that... That is one of the problems that we find with social media histories, I think, where it's like that's just not factually grounded. Now, bear in mind, there is going to be things here that we can't ground in fact because we don't know. So this is why I find this history a bit frustrating at the same time. Speaker 3 (4:25) OK, so there's nuance to be injected into this narrative. Talk to me then about how you in the book... deal with the language that you use around the Chevalier's gender? Because I think, you know, often they are referred to specifically online as they, them, and you very much claimed as a trans history. How are you approaching that in your work? Speaker 1 (4:50) I do the only thing I think that's historically responsible to do. I realised how egotistical that sounded. The Chevalier uses she, her pronouns. 55 % of the time and he him pronouns 45 % of the time. That's a rough estimate but I did do the count for the PhD. Does that change Speaker 3 (5:10) throughout this person's life? Yes. Okay so it's not that the Chevalier lives half a life. using male pronouns and then half as a female? Sorry, Speaker 1 (5:19) I misunderstood what you meant there. Yes, it does change, but it is kind of half and half. There's elements at times in the latter half of the life where it gets a bit fluffier, where it's not quite as clear. In the first half of the life, it's exclusively he, him pronouns. So I just follow his lead. When I'm talking about the first half of the life, I use he, him. When I'm talking about the second half of the life, I use she, her. Our responsibility is to the past. The past doesn't owe us anything. So that's why I use the corresponding pronouns that he used or that she used, depending on the time in the life. I just, yeah, it feels like too much of an imposition otherwise. Well, Speaker 3 (5:54) I like that approach and I think it gives a sense of a life lived actually and change within that in terms of self-presentation, but also the wider societal reading of that particular person and how they kind of slotted into society. Speaker 3 (6:10) This is a story of espionage as well. The Chevalier was a spy. Give me a bit of context. Obviously, the Chevalier is French. What's happening in Britain and France at this time politically? What's the landscape in which spying is taking place? Speaker 1 (6:23) So we have, and this is really key for the whole of this history, I think, in its understanding. We have Britain and France who are really going at it in terms of wanting to stake claims to overseas territories, colonial territories in the Americas, in the Caribbean, across Europe to a certain extent. We have at the start of the story, we have Louis XV, who is king in France. And Louis sets up, and I think this is the pivotal part of this history. And I want to hear you disagree or not disagree with this as we go through, because people do disagree with me on this. Louis XV sets up an organisation called the Secret du Roy, which is the king's secret. It is a spy network. Speaker 3 (7:03) Great name. Speaker 1 (7:04) Yeah, I know. And they are reporting, this cachet of men are reporting directly to Louis XV or a very, very close group of people around, men again, around Louis, right? But that means that his ministers, his governmental ministers who are carrying out the official... statecraft of France on his behalf do not know what these spies are doing. They are not involved in this. So it's very, very secret and very directly to the king. So that is the network that you have. And contemporaries at the time were saying the right hand is working against the left. This doesn't work. Speaker 3 (7:40) Yes, you have two systems at play at the time and two, I suppose, systems of information being circulated. Also, it's interesting you say that the spies are... almost exclusively or if not exclusively men. Yeah. Because, you know, we're going to be talking about spies a lot in this month. And I think we're going to find out that, you know, women often make very good spies for various reasons, not least of which is they are largely in history invisible to men. And Speaker 1 (8:04) there are French female spies at this time, no doubt. But within this cabal, it's almost, I'm struggling to think of an example. But then again, we don't know who all the members were. Speaker 3 (8:15) There's also Speaker 1 (8:15) that. Speaker 3 (8:16) Okay. Yeah. Yeah, there's a really interesting spy, I think who's just referred to as X possibly, in the royal papers relating to George III. And nobody has been able to work out who that person is. And I just love that we still have these mysteries. And, you know, we have like handwritten notes from this person and information. And, you know, we can kind of trace the work they were doing, but we don't know who they were. So that is just so tantalizing. Let's meet our character then, the Chevalier. Give me a bit of background information. Speaker 1 (8:49) Born in Tonnerre, the family home is still there. It was a very small, very bizarre little museum for a while. You could see some of his clothing and later her clothing and some swords. Speaker 3 (9:03) Yeah, Speaker 1 (9:03) yeah, yeah. I know, it's remarkable. Speaker 3 (9:06) That's really incredible. Speaker 1 (9:07) It closed down now so you couldn't, if you're in Tonaire, don't bother. And Speaker 3 (9:10) what's Speaker 1 (9:10) happened Speaker 3 (9:10) to the clothes? I Speaker 1 (9:11) think it's probably still there. It's just a private home. It's just owned by the family still or I mean, it's probably not direct relations. So this is in Burgundy and we're talking about 1728 when he's born. He's born into noble status. It's not that the upper echelons of society. He studies law. The family, family are merchants, they're making, there's money, but it's not, you know, utter, utter privilege. But I mean, certainly better than an awful lot of the peasant class are dealing with. He goes to the Collège des Quatre Nations in Paris. And while he's there, he excels in... intellectual pursuits, rhetorical pursuits. He starts to stand out. He's getting the notes. People are noticing that he's really good at like making those arguments, but also really good at fencing. And his really good physical prowess is also within his remit. So he's standing out as a kind of a beacon of manliness, actually, in many ways. Certainly in terms of early Speaker 3 (10:10) 18th century France in particular. Speaker 1 (10:12) Which is interesting considering what's about to come further down the line. We know that then by 1756, so somebody do the maths on that, I guess he's almost 30, you see? Is that how that works? That's when he's recruited to the secret. Okay, Speaker 3 (10:28) so he stands out enough that he is brought in and that's how this secret network works in terms of recruitment, that people are just sort of tapped on the shoulder. I suppose a bit like how... MI5 and 6 still do it, do they? I know you can sit an exam nowadays. It's an entrance exam. Speaker 1 (10:43) Yeah, he definitely didn't have to do that. But it was very tappy on shouldery though. Yes. It was like, it was somebody who knew somebody and it was like, oh, I'm actually adjacent to the secret. Like, they also had people who had links to, so there was the Secret du Roy and then they had people who had links to the Secret du Speaker 3 (10:58) Roy. Speaker 1 (10:58) So they weren't all necessarily in the inner circle, but he gets in there in 1756. Speaker 3 (11:02) Okay, so he's born, you know, to respectability but not enormous wealth. Yeah. He goes to Paris. He's making a name for himself. He is educated. He has this physical prowess. He's standing out because of these attributes. He's an interesting and eye-catching person. And then he's recruited to the Secret Service. I mean, that in itself is quite a journey for anyone. I Speaker 2 (11:24) don't Speaker 1 (11:25) think he could have planned that. You know what I mean? It's just his ability made him stand out. Yeah. Speaker 3 (11:30) Interesting. So 1756, he enters the Secret Service. as it sounds a bit American, but sure. Talk to me about the kind of things he was then recruited to do. Speaker 1 (11:45) Well, lots of different things, but the main first thing I suppose that people maybe have heard about when they talk about the Chevalier is almost immediately he goes to Russia. So Britain and France at this time are on the verge of what becomes known as the Seven Years' War. And this is what I was talking about earlier about. battling for territory, basically. And one of the things that France wants to do is shore up relationships with Russia and with the Empress Elizabeth, particularly to directly put a contact between the Empress Elizabeth and Louis XV. So this is the guy who started the secret to secret to Roy. Speaker 3 (12:23) Now. Speaker 1 (12:24) He goes under kind of as part of a diplomatic cohort. So the ministers just think he's going over as a diplomat. But Louis XV and the secret have given him the task to be the direct link between the Empress Elizabeth and Louis XV. Can Speaker 3 (12:40) I ask, as a historian, what the evidence is for this? I'm not for a second doubting this is true, but in terms of archivally, so we presumably know, we can see that he went as a diplomat. How do we know that he was part of the secret network? Speaker 1 (12:55) That thing. Well, for me personally, there is correspondence that shows from the secret that shows that there is a link to what he's doing is directly related to Elizabeth as opposed to the diplomatic core that he's supposed to be Speaker 3 (13:14) there. Speaker 1 (13:14) So Speaker 3 (13:15) he's discussing a slightly separate mission. Speaker 1 (13:17) Yes. But one of the things that I find most compelling is the confusion that his presence there causes ministers and the same in Britain later where they're like, why is this guy? We don't even necessarily know. So the confusion that he causes draws attention to him. But there's definitely, he is definitely there as part of Louis XV's intent rather than the diplomatic intent. Speaker 3 (13:43) One might argue that Having the ability to draw attention to yourself is not a great attribute for a spy. Now, I do know that recruitment for the Secret Services in Britain, you have to be very nondescript looking. You can't be too tall. You can't be too handsome, too pretty. You have to be completely not memorable. Well, Speaker 1 (14:03) that's you and me out. Speaker 3 (14:04) Well, obviously, darling. But you're saying the Chevalier draws attention constantly. Speaker 1 (14:10) Yeah, that's interesting, actually. I never thought about it like that. But, like, he definitely has the ability to. Whether he can switch it on, switch it off, I actually don't think he can. Like, from what I know of him, he can switch it off. You say that, and at the same time, you know who came into my head there? Roald Dahl. Because he was a spy, and he was very attention-grabbing. People, he turned heads every time he walked into a room because he was tall, he was handsome, he was... So I guess there are certain... Totally, that is the rule. But I guess there are exceptions who are charismatic enough who go... Oh, well, yeah, all eyes go to him. And then maybe that person can infiltrate with the upper echelons of society because they're charismatic. They're somebody you want to know. In this Speaker 3 (14:52) particular context, it's useful. OK, so he goes to Russia with this mission from the French king to improve relations. And he's reporting directly back to Louis. Talk to me then about going to London. You mentioned that he goes to London as well and that he also stands out there. So when... Is he doing that? What is his mission there? And, you know, we've spent a lot of time, I think, on this podcast and in our own lives in early