An Overdue 60 Songs Mailbag

60 Songs That Explain the '90s

In this mailbag episode, hosts Rob and Yasi Salek address listener questions regarding the definition of goth culture and the fragmentation

Key takeaways

The definition of 'goth' is rooted in an appreciation for melancholy and mystery, often stemming from 80s post-punk.
The rise of the internet has fractured the musical monoculture, making 'defining' songs highly subjective to individual silos.
Rob expresses regret over publishing a P. Diddy episode immediately preceding the public emergence of the Cassie lawsuit.
Lady Gaga is noted as an artist who successfully bridges the gap between singles-driven pop and cohesive album listening.
The presence of intense online fanbases, like Swifties or The Beehive, creates a new dynamic for music critics and commentators.

Main topics

Goth subculture definitions
Fragmentation of the musical monoculture
Music criticism in the streaming era

Notable quotes

The haters are unpaid employees working overtime to make us more famous.

Conclusion

A nostalgic and conversational deep dive into how musical identity and

Transcript preview

Speaker 1 (0:08) Hello, friends. A quick note to say that 60 Songs is now available on YouTube. We made it. Success. That was easy. You can now watch full episodes of this show on YouTube, and you can also check out our new social media accounts on Instagram and TikTok, all using the name 60 Songs that explain the 90s. We have heard your cries of despair and confusion, and we have therefore embraced various popular online platforms. So watch us on YouTube. Check us out on TikTok and Instagram. I'm on Blue Sky and Twitter still under the name Harvilla, H-A-R-V-I-L-L-A, but maybe stay out of it. I don't know. We'll put all the links for these in the episode description as well. Thanks for listening and or watching, and we'll see you on the internet. Speaker 1 (0:59) This episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s is presented to you by Nintendo. Some things stick around for a reason. A great song, a favorite movie, a game everyone wants another turn at. The Nintendo Switch 2 system fits right into that tradition. With two controllers included in games like Mario Kart World, Donkey Kong Bonanza, and EA Sports FC 26, there's something for every age and every mood. Whether you're at home or on the go, it's easy to keep the good stuff in rotation. Learn more at Nintendo.com slash Nintendo Switch 2. Games and systems sold separately. Games rated E to E10+. Speaker 1 (1:44) Hello there, and welcome to a mailbag episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s. It has been quite a while since we did this. I meant to look up exactly how long, and I didn't, so I'm going to say two years and hope that that is basically accurate. We have not done this since I went on video, I will say that, and so this will be my first mailbag with me looking directly into a teleprompter. As I answer your questions, thank you so much to everybody for reaching out, for sending in questions slash comments slash gripes. My guest today will not be a surprise to many people who addressed questions directly to her, just assuming she would be there. And they were, of course, correct. Yossi Salik has joined us once again, host of Bansplain, queen of the podcasting realm. Yossi, thank you so much. for gracing us with your presence. Rob, Speaker 2 (2:40) what a pleasure and an honor to be here on your... It's not biannual because that means twice a year, right? How do you say it when it's every two years? Bicentennial. Isn't Speaker 1 (2:53) biannual the same? No, it's bicentennial. Speaker 2 (2:55) Bicentennial Speaker 1 (2:55) is not accurate. Are you sure? All right. Is it not? This is the first one in 200 years. It feels like 200 years. It is the spiritual bicentennial of our previous Speaker 2 (3:06) mailbag. Speaker 1 (3:06) That's how people feel Speaker 2 (3:07) when you go on break. They feel that it's the bicentennial podcast. Apparently they do. Speaker 1 (3:12) Yes. eons past. How are you doing, Yasi? How are you feeling? What's new in your universe? Is there anything you'd like to tell us about yourself before we embark on this project? Speaker 2 (3:25) Is there anything I'd like to tell you about myself? Speaker 2 (3:30) Like Speaker 1 (3:30) a workout. What's the workout routine? Like, what are you are you are we bench pressing? Like what's what's going on? Yes. Sometimes Speaker 2 (3:38) we're bench pressing. Today it was military press, which is the one that goes overhead. And then I don't Speaker 1 (3:46) know Speaker 2 (3:46) why it's called that support the troops, I guess. And then the other lift we did today was a sumo deadlift. So that was today's workout. It wasn't. Who is Speaker 1 (3:59) we? Do you have like a spotter? Speaker 2 (4:02) No, I go in a little group. It's a little fitness class. It's really lovely. Okay. What else do I want to tell you about myself? Well, Bandsplain is in the midst of our Indie Sleaze arc. I don't know when this comes out. Hopefully it'll still be Indie Sleaze arc. And I, much to my. Two days. Two days. Oh, great. Perfect. We'll definitely be right up in it. Much to my shock and awe. You've not done House of Jealous Lovers by The Rapture? Speaker 1 (4:31) Yeah, that's on the long list. Are you doing The Rapture? Can you say that? We're doing Speaker 2 (4:37) Perfect Song, House of Jealous Lovers. Speaker 1 (4:40) Oh, okay. Which will also be out this week. It is an objectively perfect song. Look forward to Speaker 2 (4:47) that little crossover. A song that explains the 2000s on Mansplain. Speaker 1 (4:53) We got a question like, do you agree with it being called Indie Sleaze? Did you call it that at the time? I think it's pretty well established that this is an entirely retroactive term. Totally post Speaker 2 (5:04) -facto, but I'm going to say something. Yes. I've come around. Speaker 1 (5:08) Okay. I've surrendered. You're pro-Indie Sleaze. I'm Speaker 2 (5:12) just like, first of all, who cares? Like, who cares? Sure. You know what I mean? Good point. Speaker 1 (5:17) It's Speaker 2 (5:18) kind of a pretty good descriptor. It was kind of indie and it was a little more sleazy in many senses. It sticks. And I was like, yes, it's not like Joy Division went around calling themselves post-punk, you know, and like no one like sniffs their nose at the term post-punk. Just let it go. Also, it's already stuck. We're not getting rid of it. That's a good Speaker 1 (5:46) point. Let's get on Speaker 2 (5:47) board. Just be raging against Speaker 1 (5:49) the machine. That's right. Speaker 2 (5:52) Indie Speaker 1 (5:52) Sleaze is here to stay. Speaker 2 (5:54) I'm really thrilled to do this with you. I can't wait to see what your adoring fans are demanding to know of you. We do mailbags all Speaker 1 (6:02) the Speaker 2 (6:02) time because I'm lazy. So Speaker 1 (6:04) much indie rock. That's all right. This is not lazy. This is not a lazy process. This is this is this is important engagement with with with listeners. You know, it does it does give production a break from cutting 50 song clips and 10,000 words, you know, on blank, blank, blankety blank artist. You know, there is there is that element to it. But I do think it is important. Speaker 2 (6:30) It's for the real heads. This is for the real heads. Speaker 1 (6:33) That's right. For the real heads. Speaker 2 (6:34) Okay. Well, Rob, do you want to get started? Speaker 1 (6:39) I do. I do. Thank you again for doing this. I Speaker 2 (6:42) wouldn't want to do this. Couldn't be more of an honor. Well, first off, we have a question from Dr. Jerry Taco. And before we get to his question, I would love to ask you if you think he is a medical doctor or maybe he has a PhD. Speaker 2 (6:59) Do you, a Chinese medicine doctor? Like what kind of doctor do you think Jerry Taco is? Speaker 1 (7:07) Okay, first of all, you're in the wrong doc, but we're going to roll with it. Second of all, Dr. Jerry Taco. Dr. Jerry Taco. I don't know if this is a medical doctor. I'm going to guess a psychiatrist. I just, I just, I get that vibe. You know, I think it's, I don't think this is a, we're not dealing with a brain surgeon here, but we are dealing with a trained professional. Speaker 2 (7:30) Maybe he's a chiropractor. Okay, I'm so sorry. I was in the wrong doc. That's fine. It's all right. Jerry Taco, at least you got your name talked about. Let's get to the correct talk. Let's do it. With love and respect to Dr. Jerry Taco. Speaker 1 (7:45) No, no, we've committed to Dr. Jerry Taco, whose question is, what is a goth? Speaker 2 (7:51) Oh, yeah. Dr. Jerry Speaker 1 (7:52) Taco would like to know what a goth is. I trust you more than me to answer this question, but I did. That's unfair of me to make you answer the question. What is a goth? A goth? These are my friends who I play with every week. Speaker 2 (8:13) Is it not kind of, I feel like. This person must be young. I mean, goths are people. No. Mostly coming from the. No, they're not people. No, they are not people. No, Speaker 1 (8:25) they're Speaker 2 (8:25) not young. They are. Yeah. Ghouls and goblins. Rooted, you know, they come from the 80s sort of post-punk world. I'll tell you what. I saw multi-generational goths, which was one of the most beautiful. visions of my life a couple of weeks ago when I went and saw The Cure in Scotland. And there was truly cloths of all ages and sizes. For example, I saw a man walk through the crowd wearing a full, from the back, he just looked like he would be your investment banker. He had a polar fleece and some chinos and a like cropped haircut turned around just a smear of red lipstick. Speaker 2 (9:10) Really incredible. It's a Speaker 1 (9:11) tasteful. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9:13) A subdued goth. Yeah. They were black. They were dramatic makeup. Their hair is often black. Speaker 1 (9:21) They're sad. And or gloomy. And or angry. They Speaker 2 (9:25) have an appreciation Speaker 1 (9:25) for the Speaker 2 (9:25) melancholy, the more mysterious and melancholic shades of life. That's what a goth is, Dr. Jerry Taco. Speaker 1 (9:36) There we go. God bless you, Dr. Jerry Taco. Speaker 2 (9:41) Okay, I'm on the right dock now, you guys. I apologize for the mishap. Speaker 1 (9:47) It's all right. That was perfect, actually. That works. Speaker 2 (9:51) Listen, sometimes God works in mysterious ways, like we said. That's right. Speaker 1 (9:56) That's right. Or Satan, as the case may be. This question Speaker 2 (10:00) is from Lindsay, who may or may not be a doctor. She didn't specify. Dear Rob and crew, I have recently succumbed to making a grave mistake reading the comments. Speaker 1 (10:12) Don't do it. I'm Speaker 2 (10:13) always surprised when a version of, quote, this song doesn't explain the 2000s is made. It happens frequently. At this point, deep into this glorious podcast concept, how do you understand, quote, songs that explain? And what do you make of folks who seem to be missing the point anytime a song doesn't fit their experience? Thank you for all that you share with us. And thanks to the whole crew for bringing this show to life. It's been an excellent companion in a hard. season. There's also a PS that says you cannot have Hanif Abdulkareeb on enough. He's the best. And that is the most evergreen statement of all time. We would all love Hanif to come on every episode of our program every time. Speaker 1 (10:56) We ask him frequently and he always, he always comes. He is the mayor of Columbus. Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (11:03) So Rob, you read the comments, you read every single comment every day. That's your part of your morning practice. is to read the comments. Speaker 1 (11:10) Okay, yes. In lieu of morning pages. Yes, I just read the comments and then reflect on them for 15 minutes. I do not, I told you to stay off Reddit and I stay off Reddit. I do not ordinarily read the comments, but I had, there was a blip there for three or four episodes where I did sort of realize that Spotify has comments now and I was looking at it and I was observing that. I think there's something interesting about the 2000s when culture sort of atomizes a little bit. Like I've gone back and forth and I think you have as well. Like whether the monoculture ever existed, you know, in the 80s and the 90s. But I do think there's something about the 2000s where there are more likely to be songs that are very important to me and very important to a lot of people that other people had no experience of. Like if you didn't go the pitchfork route. As like a rock enthusiast in the 2000s. Then even someone like TV on the radio or Wolf Parade. You know, these bands that are very, very important and very fantastic. They don't resonate the way like Smashing Pumpkins did in the 90s. I don't mean to single her out, but Joanna Newsom was quite vexing. to some people. Like I've never heard of this person. How does this person explain the 2000s? Like, et cetera, et cetera. And so I, I am not purposely trying to antagonize people. And I, I did start the show with the idea of not being like super inside baseball rock critic. You know what I'm saying? Like, I like that the show ideally has sort of a universal feel, but I do think the 2000s is interesting in that you get these songs that are very, very, very, very important to a smaller, but still very important group of people that are completely unknown, you know, to a wider audience. There's more of a silo thing. Like, and I always just assume this is the internet. Right. Like working as intended, like we're starting to go off on our own journeys, you know, and there's always going to be, you know, like the Taylor Swift's of the world, you know, the big pop songs. But I especially with rock, it feels like once you get beyond, you know, the strokes, white stripes of it all, you know. there aren't a lot of rock bands that everyone agrees on, you know, or that everyone is a hundred percent aware of. And I, I don't want to antagonize people. And like, if I'm doing too much indie, like I will keep that in mind. I do kind of reserve the right to do whatever I want to some degree. Like, I'm really glad I did Joanna Newsom. And I do to get to the actual question, like. 60 songs that explain the 90s is now an inaccurate title in like two or three ways. And I don't want to be the guy whose title, whose podcast title is just a lie. But I am that person. And explain is doing a whole lot of work. And is not maybe meant to be taken like as a dictionary definition, literal type thing. What interests me about the 2000s is that everyone is starting to have their own very specific experience of the decade. Speaker 2 (14:37) Can I just say like you're such a nice person. Speaker 1 (14:43) Thank you. I did one. One of the ways that I think you and I work well together in this format is that you are free to be less of a nice person if you want to be. I get it. Like, I understand. I do. I do live to antagonize people. Speaker 2 (15:01) Whose podcast is this? Is it yours? No, go make one then. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Speaker 1 (15:07) Several things. I know what you mean. You're not legally mandated Speaker 2 (15:10) to listen. This is not a government provided service. It's not the post office. Yeah. Speaker 1 (15:18) There Speaker 2 (15:18) are other podcasts. Speaker 1 (15:19) No. Keep it moving. Not Speaker 2 (15:21) as reliable Speaker 1 (15:21) as the post office. There are. Yes. Yes. That's Speaker 2 (15:24) how Speaker 1 (15:24) I feel. Speaker 2 (15:24) Leave my Rob alone. He can do whatever he wants. Two valid Speaker 1 (15:28) perspectives. Speaker 2 (15:31) Okay. Next question. Speaker 2 (15:36) Well, I guess you already kind of addressed this, but from Ben said, any response for the haters? Speaker 1 (15:42) That's a, that's a callback to a previous episode. That's a Zach Barron quote, actually. That is the last question from a Zach Barron interview conducted in the Village Voice. Speaker 2 (15:52) Am I now on a third wrong document or is this still correct? Speaker 1 (15:56) No, that's it. No, you are on, you are now, there were only two documents to prevent exactly that occurrence. You are now in the correct document. We love Zach Speaker 2 (16:04) Barron. Speaker 1 (16:05) We do love Zach Barron. He just interviewed Tom Cruise. And I hope that he asked Tom Cruise, do you have any message for the haters? Because I'm imagining that Tom does. Speaker 2 (16:15) Yeah, I would hope so. You know what I think? Speaker 1 (16:20) What's that? The Speaker 2 (16:21) haters. The haters are great. The haters are part of the ecosystem. The haters are actually unpaid employees working overtime to make us more famous. And if that's what they would love to do with their time. Speaker 1 (16:36) As Speaker 2 (16:36) you can tell, both Rob and I set out from a very young age to become famous. At the very least, they're raising our profiles. Speaker 1 (16:47) Sure. Go Speaker 2 (16:48) off, haters. Enjoy your enjoy your unpaid labor. Speaker 1 (16:52) Is it Eric Adams, the disgraced mayor of New York City? It was like the haters are your waiters at the buffet of success. Am I? I'm doing that from memory, but I'm pretty sure. Speaker 2 (17:02) I'm really sorry, but period. That's gold. Yes. Speaker 1 (17:07) Yes. Speaker 2 (17:09) The haters are the waiters at your buffet of success. Here's a there's a small issue with that because. By definition, a buffet doesn't have waiters because you serve yourself, but we don't need to like... They bring Speaker 1 (17:21) drinks. I know they bring drinks and they take away your plates. Yeah, the metaphor. It's a little wonky, but Speaker 2 (17:28) okay. This question is from Speaker 1 (17:30) Colin. Speaker 2 (17:31) You've talked about the monoculture a bit over the years, more so in the 90s episodes. Obviously, the rise of the internet and digital music and the blogosphere led to the monoculture's fracture, at least when it comes to music. As we near the 60th song that explains the 90s colon the 2000s, do you think it's even possible to do 60 songs that explain the 10s or even the 20s? To me, it seems like genres have become so hyper-specific and outside of the Taylor Swift of the world, there are not a lot of songs which really define either decade. As you get into the 20s, there are a lot of songs that maybe explain the culture. They seem to arise via TikTok, Instagram algorithms and are often decades old. see running up that hill. Do those songs, even decades old by the time they're trending, quote, explain the 20s? Do they explain the 20s more than music that is actually being released in the 20s? So like 12 questions in there. Speaker 1 (18:24) That was a lot of questions. This is a great question, though, because yes, I do think that as we progress, as our whole lives become internet. Speaker 2 (18:34) I Speaker 1 (18:34) do think that we get more and more siloed. You know, there are fewer and fewer songs. There are still, but there are fewer and fewer songs, artists, whatever, that we all agree on are all exposed to constantly. We are all continually siloed. And so explained, quote unquote, comes to mean very different things to very. different people. Like it comes to only mean something to you. Like if I'm thinking about the 2020s, then the Phoebe Bridger song, I know the end, I think is the single song that explains the 2020s for me, just because that, but both because of her and because like that is COVID to me, like that song is very, very explicitly. you know, the feeling of being alone, but like together with everybody alone in this sort of terrifying situation. Like, but that's, you know, I'm going to go see her at a hockey arena tomorrow night. But still, she is not someone as famous, as ubiquitous as like Pearl Jam was in the 90s or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, it is really interesting to me. How the made up word explains, you know, means a very different thing from the 90s, the 2000s, but even, you know, a huge difference between the 2000s and the 2020s. Speaker 2 (19:51) Yeah. Well, I wonder how much in the 2020s you have to really get into pop music. I mean, I got the person kind of hinted at it, but like, you know, Charlie X, Brat. is very explanatory of at least a certain part of the 2020s. You know, there's a lot of pop music that I think is pretty defining and also hip hop. Speaker 1 (20:15) Right. Yeah. Just sort of, you know, Speaker 2 (20:17) shifted. Speaker 2 (20:21) When all those celebrities sang Imagine All the People together on the Zoom call during COVID. Gal Gadot, right. That's probably the peak song that explains the 20s to me personally. I think Speaker 1 (20:36) you're right. And there we go. That's an old song that explains the 2020s better than any song from... See, that's why you're here. Speaker 2 (20:45) Okay, next question is from Nicholas Earl. Huge fan. Quick. Speaker 1 (20:50) question. Gorgeous, Speaker 2 (20:51) gorgeous set of words. I love your descriptions of physical media from back in the day and was curious back in the day is so like heart wrenching to me in that sentence. Do you know? No, it's a real knife in my heart. And was curious what modern albums of the streaming era would be most satisfying to have purchased on CD after hearing the singles and what would be the most disappointing? Thanks. Speaker 1 (21:15) I was trying to think of somebody like if we're defining streaming era as Spotify coming to America, which I think is 2011. Like I was trying to find somebody who's a 2000s artist technically, but still fits into this. I think Lady Gaga is really interesting, like arguably on both sides, like the fame and the fame monster. That record is incredible, right? From front to back. I was thinking, one of my favorite Gaga songs is, That boy is a monster. That's incredible. Which is the 10th most famous song of whatever the 15 Gaga songs that comprise the fame slash the fame monster. I think that is an example of you are drawn to that by Just Dance. or paparazzi or whatever. And that's like wall to wall versus I born this way is maybe kind of not the exact reverse, but like the drop off for me from like born this way. And like you and I, like the fake Mutt Lang song, like I, it's, I think her albums get very, very long and, and maybe like. Even like Mayhem, like the most recent one, like I'm blanking on what the single is, but my daughter loved the single to Mayhem. But like my favorite song on that record is the fake Taylor Swift song. How bad do you want me? Like there's there are some cases where you put on a Lady Gaga album and you're sort of reaching for the singles and like everything else starts to blur because this record is an hour and a half or whatever. But there are other cases. where like the deep cuts are really, you know, the real meal where she's concerned. And so I think Lady Gaga sort of weirdly occupies both sides of that. If you're just coming for the singles, like it could be glorious or it could be a little weird, but it'll probably be worth it in either case. I Speaker 2 (23:10) started laughing because you immediately evoked one of the best tweets of all time by Britney Spears. Do you remember this tweet from 2011? I said, does anyone think global warming is a good thing? I, I love Lady Gaga. I think she's a really interesting artist. That's one tweet. Does anyone think global warming is a good thing? Question mark. I love Lady Gaga. I think she's a really interesting artist. Nope. All one. Speaker 1 (23:37) Two quick questions. Yeah. Was there a space? Was it one? Was there like a line break? Does anyone think global warming Speaker 2 (23:44) is a good thing? Question mark. Space. Like a. One space. I love Lady Gaga, period. I think she's a really interesting artist, period. Speaker 1 (23:53) Is she implying that Lady Gaga maybe thinks global warming is a good thing? I don't know. I think she just went ahead and put two Speaker 2 (24:01) thoughts into one package and sent it off and never thought about it again. There Speaker 1 (24:07) we go. That's the way to do it. She'd be a great podcaster in that sense, I suppose. I think so. I think so. Yeah. Speaker 2 (24:16) Okay. Next question is from Jenny. Hiya. Will you be covering any of the adult contemporary-ish songwriters? Your Jack Johnsons, Jason Mraz's, or other non-threatening men who made it into so many mixtapes given to be my well-meaning gentleman callers? I married the guy who made me the